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TimesArgus.com - We Are Vermont

Some big lies about solar



New solar panels at Central Vermont Public Service headquarters in Rutland after a dedication ceremony in June.

Vyto Starinskas/Rutland Herald

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By Tom Rooney - Published: August 29, 2010

When Kate Hepburn called Burt Lancaster a liar in the move “Rainmaker,” Lancaster said he wasn’t lying, he was “dreaming.”

Today, lots of people are doing a lot of dreaming about solar power. And the more popular solar gets, the more frequently these dreams are repeated as truth.

Here are the three biggest:

Dream Number One: Solar costs more than coal and oil and natural gas. But here is the truth: It just seems that way because other people pay many of the costs of fossil fuels.

That is what the National Academy of Sciences found last year in a study called “The Hidden Costs of Energy.” Coal costs $63 billion more than what people pay for it — all in the form of the sickness and death that result from releasing coal particles into the air and water.

That is the equivalent of about 25 percent to 100 percent of what people pay for energy from coal.

If that sounds like a subsidy, it should, because that is exactly what it is.

Oil subsidies are even more extravagant.

“The web of direct subsidies includes billions in government-sponsored low-cost construction loans and tax breaks like the Foreign Tax Credit,” said energy analyst Blaine Townsend in the San Jose Mercury News. “‘Last in, first out’ accounting practices, special write-downs for core operations and royalty ‘relief’ for leases in the Gulf of Mexico have robbed the federal coffers of billions more.”

The International Energy Agency says fossil fuels are subsidized $550 billion a year around the world.

Let’s not forget nuclear: The federal government pays a large part of the insurance for nuclear power plants. If government subsidized insurance for solar companies, our costs would drop dramatically.

I’m not saying they should — I am just noting how subsidies create an advantage for one kind of energy.

When I studied business at the University of Chicago, I met on many occasions Milton Friedman, America’s greatest economist. Friedman — and every freshman econ student — knew economic comparisons were only valid when “all other things are equal.”

And when you compare “apples to apples” and strip away all the hidden subsidies, solar is not just cleaner and easier, it is also cheaper. People who do not like subsidies for solar are on the right track; they just chose the wrong fuel.

Dream Number Two: Solar energy in the desert uses water that we do not have.

The truth: People often confuse different kinds of solar energy. Photovoltaic solar is by far the largest solar technology — and requires no water. Compared to hydropower, which uses 18 gallons of water for every kilowatt of energy produced, or other kinds of energy which use about one to two gallons for the same amount of energy, photovoltaic solar creates energy directly so it does not need water for cooling.

One megawatt of solar — enough to power an industrial park or a good-sized farm — saves 2 million gallons of water a year. Solar thermal power does require water — lots of it. It is good to know the difference.

Dream Number Three: Solar is immature and speculative, says The Wall Street Journal.

The truth: Germany has created 500,000 new solar jobs in the last 10 years. This year alone, Germans will build the equivalent of three nuclear power plants with simple solar panels. The speculation part is over: Today they are cashing in.

As are other large companies all over the country, including Wal-Mart, IBM, Los Gatos Tomatoes, and many others. Next year, one of America’s oldest and most respected companies will install one of the larger solar plants in the country: That would be Dow Jones, owner of the Wall Street Journal.

Their editorial writers apparently missed that story.

Or maybe they were just dreaming.



Tom Rooney is president and CEO of SPG Solar in Novato, Calif.



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READER COMMENTS


none none,

I have thought about it, for a couple of days now in fact.

Do the math on that $10,000.

Using the $1.00 per meal cost applied by the Salvation Army, three meals a day costs $1,095 a year. Divide that into $10,000 and you get nine with a little left over.

Nine people a day, or in your case nine children a day, for just one year.

I would venture to say one months war expense would go a considerable bit further than my $10,000 would if you really want to make a difference in the lives of the children of this world.

On the other hand over the next 50 years the $10,000 spent on just my house amounts to over 340,000 pounds of CO2 saved. All the children of the world will benefit from that!
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Thu, Sep 2, 2010, 3:12 pm EST

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none none,

If you feel that Alfred spending 10,000 dollars to reduce his carbon footprint is a waste of money what would you call this? http://www.hauteliving.com/2008/11/35000-square-feet-steven-a-cohen-needs-even-more-room-in-greenwich/

~~~
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Tue, Aug 31, 2010, 2:19 pm EST

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none none,

Waste of money? I don't think so. $10 billion a month on war is wasting money. Multi-million dollar contracts for sports stars is a waste of money. Lottery tickets, now that's wasting money.
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Tue, Aug 31, 2010, 10:45 am EST

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what a big fat waste of money. Another expensive liberal fantasy.
Think of all the children you could feed with $10,000.........liberals favorite battle cry.........
try that one on for size =)
-- Posted by none none on Tue, Aug 31, 2010, 2:37 am EST

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Thanks Bennett,

It's probably going to be a couple of years before I will seriously be looking at doing this. Hopefully the cheaper solar cell technology will be on the market by then.

~~~
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 10:31 pm EST

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Just to be clear- you would need separate batteries and a separate charge controller. The guys at the Solar Store in Waterbury are really good at answering specific questions if you have more of them. They've helped me understand a bunch of stuff...

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 9:15 pm EST

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"Do you know if it's possible to do a system that doesn't use batteries but that will stop feeding power to the grid and only supply it to the house if the grid loses power?"

Mike InVT,

Absolutely such a system is possible- it would only take a switch to be able to divert the power from the panel from feeding the input of a grid-tied inverter to to the input of a non-grid tied inverter and some batteries and a second switch to switch from the output of the grid tied inverter to your breaker box to the output of the non-grid tied inverter to your breaker box. Any decent electrician could do it. Heck- I could do it.

.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 9:12 pm EST

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Thanks Alfred,

I knew that there would have to be something in place to regulate the power but I wasn't sure if batteries would be required or not.

This is a little off topic (although it does have to do with energy savings) but I thought some might get a kick out of a video tour of a 100 square foot home. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRvsWuWNUM

You wouldn't need to generate much power for that home! Seriously, there's no way we could live in a home that small but there are links to other small homes that can easily accommodate more than one person. Some of them are quite attractive.

~~~
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:19 pm EST

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Rooney is loooney...and so is anyone that believes this rubbish

How can he prove that people die directly from coal powered electricity?
Where is the data that directly correlates death from coal poisoned water and air?

Alternative energy advocates have to work twice as hard to achieve and maintain credibility when loons like this throw crap on the wall and hope the public believes it.
-- Posted by Buzz Lightyear on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:14 pm EST

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Mike inVT,

I'm no electrical engineer but I believe you need the batteries since the current needs some place to go if you are not using it as such.

There must be a complete 'circuit' for the current to flow through. Electricity is always on the move if you will.

In any event the configuration would require some serious controls to ensure proper voltage to feed your appliances. The grid does a lot more then just deliver the power.
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:01 pm EST

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Tim Celley,

Good points all! That is why I chose the Net Metering configuration. I am not trying to live on PV Solar power, just reduce my foot print. The system has saved over 800 lbs of CO2 so far.

One point I would like to make clear. My PV panels are self contained. There is no water circulating in the panels. Their efficiency goes down as heat builds but they are engineered for that consideration. In the winter with less light they will actually produce better for the light there is since the air temperature will keep them cooler!
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:54 pm EST

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Alfred Blakey,

Thanks,

Do you know if it's possible to do a system that doesn't use batteries but that will stop feeding power to the grid and only supply it to the house if the grid loses power? From what I've read it seems like that is possible. Or is it a necessity to have batteries involved if you are going to do a system that provides power to your home if the grid goes down. Of course I realize that you would not have power if the sun is not shining.

At some point I'd like to build a small energy efficient home that would not be dependent on the grid.

~~~
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:47 pm EST

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My house was solar powered for many years. About seven years ago I went on the grid and sold all my solar stuff, panels,inverter,and batterys. Complete solar power works for some,not everybody. One problem I had, the banks didn't want to refinance a solar house. Found one that would,but would have been at a higher interest rate. I used a back up generater for laundry, showers, anytime I needed alot of power. Gas for the generater was about $30 a month. My electric bill now is about $35 a month. Solar dose have it's limits. I wanted to be able to use what I needed for power when I needed it. My thinking- I have a long steep driveway that I plow and maintain. I burn wood (cut it off my own land)do it all myself. Now, I don't worry about gas for the generater, keeping the solar panels shoveled off, Starting the generater when I need a shower or keeping the battery's for the system up and running or replacing them when they need it. Solar is well suited for some- If you have gravity feed water, thats a good start. Or If solar is just a back up to reduce your electric rates, or during a power outage. You may not be able to run- A blower motor to heat your house, a water pump without starting a gererater. A toaster, coffee maker. Anything that uses alot of power for more than a couple of minutes. Or anything that has to be reset anytime the power goes out. Cloudy days add to the time you have to run your generater. In the winter, sometimes a generater will start hard, or they start easy but start right up and run 3/4 RPM at -10 below. I chose to make my house more effcient and go on the grid. I kept my back up generater. Just a few thoughts for anyone who's interested.
-- Posted by Tim Celley on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:41 pm EST

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Mike inVT,

This is a Net Metering configuration. No batteries. If the grid goes down the converters stop producing power. (feed back to the line could injure or even kill a repair man working on the line.)

A battery system is available as a configuration but at about twice the cost and I did not see that as a configuration I was interested in. Especially since it introduces a maintenance issue to the system.
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:33 pm EST

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A None,

More math.

As I understand it the tax write off is calculated as 30% of the project cost to me. It has nothing to do with my tax bracket.

Using simple numbers the $19k project - $5k grant is $14k cost to me but the tax break is 30% of that and that amounts to $4.2k.

Granted if I don't pay at least $4.2k in taxes I won't get that much back this year but it certainly is not what you indicate would be my savings. Secondly the money which covers this tax break is funded through 2015 so if I can't get it all this year I can roll over the remaining refund to next year. My advice would be 'talk with your tax preparer.'

I stand by the original $10k cost
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:27 pm EST

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Alfred Blakey,

Are there storage batteries involved in the system that you have installed? I know that home solar is huge in Japan but I don't know if they store collected energy in batteries or not.

Thanks for the info that you are providing.

~~~
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:10 pm EST

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Tax breaks?
Gotta have the money to spend first, before worrying about tax breaks.
--
I would rather have a very low income tax and small property tax bill, and spend my money as i wish
-- Posted by none none on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 11:57 am EST

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A None, while your technically correct, it does not change the point being made.
-- Posted by First Name on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 11:11 am EST

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"...The project full cost was just over $19K BUT I have a $5K grant ... and I'll get about $4.5K in a tax write off for this year. So my out of pocket cost is $10K...."

Doing the math
a $4.5K tax write off does not equal $4.5K in cash.
Depending on your tax bracket it is more like $1.5K. (This assumes a 30% tax bracket.)
So your out of pocket expense was closer to $13k

..
-- Posted by A None on Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 12:02 am EST

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A tax break is a subsidy. A subsidy is a monetary benefit given by the gov. That includes direct funds as well as not having to pay for services. Things such as land use, tax breakes, etc that the company would normally pay for.
-- Posted by mark None on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 10:18 pm EST

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Thanks Alfred
I appreciate your advice.
Mike B
-- Posted by none none on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 9:47 pm EST

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Minor correction for those doing the math.

It was 158 kW at $0.06 each for $9.48
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 9:12 pm EST

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"How much are the panels and set up fee.
Thanks
Mike B"

Mike,

The project full cost was just over $19K BUT I have a $5K grant (the check is in the mail) and I'll get about $4.5K in a tax write off for this year. So my out of pocket cost is $10K.

To put that in perspective I spent about $9.5K a few years ago when I had a new furnace installed. More than half of that cost was in asbestos removal (it's an old house). I spend money each year on oil to use the furnace for heat. I spend NOTHING on the panels and get electricity!

Check out my site.
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 8:49 pm EST

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Alfred
How much are the panels and set up fee.
Thanks
Mike B
-- Posted by none none on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 8:35 pm EST

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16 Jul 2010 we went online producing electricity with PV panels on our home.

By 17 Aug 2010 the panels had produced 363 kW of power. My June 2010 power bill was 434 kW for reference.

Over the course of the year I expect the panels will produce about 51% of my home power needs. Our average power bill is around $100 a month. My August power bill was $58 and Green Mountain Power has paid me $9.48 for 156 kW produced in the time frame of that bill as well.

For the next 25 years the panels are under warranty. Fifty years out they are rated to still be producing at 80% of the original capacity (240W per panel).

The system is net metered. You may be using power our panels produce since they feed the grid with the power we don't use immediately.

Everyone can contribute in some form even if it is just conservation. Individuals can make a difference.

See our web page for more details

http://home.myfairpoint.net/vtdba/powerfromthesun/index.html
-- Posted by Alfred Blakey on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 7:58 pm EST

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500,000 German employees in the solar industry? Now, when it comes to lies, that's a whopper, McDonald's doesn't even have that many employees in the USA!

What are these Germans doing anyway, are they pedaling stationary bicycles hooked up to little generators placed outside in the sunshine, or perhaps near a window?

500, 000? Are you sure it isn't 5 million, or perhaps 5 kajillion, I mean if you are gonna make stuff up, go for it!

And 500,000 solar industry employees to replace 3 nuke plants? Wow, that's a bargain, probably driving those Frenchmen crazy to think they could end their high unemployment if they abandon those filthy Nuclear plants that generate 85% of their electricity.

Tell us Tom, when does your flight leave for outer space? I think they need your expertise on planet Uranus, but while your waiting, maybe you could get a job writing fairy tales for young moonbats.

Tom, dude, you really need to cut back on the weed!
.




replace
-- Posted by Vernon Chase on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 6:20 pm EST

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James,
ANY monetary consideration IS a subsidy. The reason large corporations install photovoltaic solar is not only for the tax break (SUBSIDY) it is also for the reduction of their utility bills as well as the financial gain of net-metering (selling excess power back to the utility). The "so-called" "hidden costs" are a one time charge unlike non-renewable sources which continually provide "hidden costs" in health care issues and environmental damage.
Your reference to "...the destruction of billions of square feet of natural habitat." defies comment other than, WTH are you talking 'bout Willis?
Finally, the only reason solar is supplemental is that there is not enough of it installed and grid-connected. Did you not finish reading the article before you started on your mis-informed tirade?
-- Posted by Say NO to China on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 3:24 pm EST

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A tax break is not s subsidy. The only reason those large companies put solar in is because it is a tax break. That is it keeps government from robbing them as much. As for the "hidden costs" of solar how about the highly toxic panel production process which is more often centered in China...the largest coal user in the world.? How about the transmission lines, the metal casings/brackets/frames, converters/inverters, lead acid plastic battery storage/disposal, and finally the destruction of billions of square feet of natural habitat. Solar is fine, no worse than any other energy producer, no better either. But for the sake of all energy production lets be honest about its place in the grid; supplemental at best, expensive and inefficient at its worst.
-- Posted by James Hill on Sun, Aug 29, 2010, 11:13 am EST

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