TimesArgus.com - We Are Vermont

Boy Scout policy on gays faulted

Welch, 25 colleagues ask for end discrimination against homosexuals



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By SUSAN ALLEN TIMES ARGUS STAFF - Published: February 9, 2010

MONTPELIER - Vermont U.S. Rep. Peter Welch and 25 of his congressional colleagues have called on the Boy Scouts of America to reverse its discriminatory policy against homosexuals, citing a decision by the organization to block an East Montpelier lesbian couple from serving as Cub Scout leaders with their son's troop.

"As deeply troubling as the exclusionary policy is, the message that the policy sends is perhaps most damaging," the members of Congress wrote in a Jan. 29 letter to Robert Mazzuca, chief scout executive. "The Boy Scouts are teaching America's youth at impressionable ages that lesbians and gays are to be excluded because they are different, and not 'morally straight' as per the Boy Scouts' official stated position."

The letter specifically references the experience of Cate and Elizabeth Wirth, a civil unioned couple who were turned down as Cub Scout leaders because of their sexual orientation.

"We think the Boy Scouts would encourage all parents to take an active involvement in their children's Scouting life," the letter read. "Cate and Elizabeth had volunteered before without problem, such that the Boy Scouts happily accepted their service again until learning of their sexual orientation."

Welch called the Boy Scouts "a tremendous organization" the creates opportunities for kids. But, he added of the Wirths, "This is a very good Vermont family and my hope is there will be a way for them to participate."

The letter was spearheaded by U.S. Reps. Gary Ackerman of New York, a former Eagle Scout, and Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin.

"I'll always be a proud Eagle Scout, but this discriminatory policy must end," said Ackerman in a statement. "Rejecting a Cub Scout's mothers from volunteering just because of their sexual orientation doesn't comply with the Scout law I recited at Scout meetings."

Deron Smith, the national spokesperson for the Boy Scouts of America, said in an e-mail to the Times Argus on Monday, "This is a longstanding societal issue. It continues to be discussed and debated in a variety of ways and by a number of organizations. The BSA respects everyone's right to have and express a different opinion. Along with the rest of the nation, the BSA is learning and growing through this discussion.

"The BSA recognizes that some do not agree with its position on this issue and values the opinions of everyone as it teaches its members to use courtesy and respect at all times. To disagree does not mean to disrespect," Smith said.

He acknowledged receipt of the letter from the congressional members, adding, "This letter is being shared with BSA leadership, and like all input it will be carefully considered. In the meantime, the BSA will continue to strengthen common interests, while respecting differences and will focus on its mission and on reaching as many youth as possible in order to help them grow into good, strong citizens."

Cate Wirth said Monday she was happy when Ackerman's office called about her situation after reading about the incident online in a Times Argus article.

"I was very pleased that they would consider this serious enough, these congressmen, to draft a letter," she said. The initial article, Wirth said, had already generated discussion of the issue of the Boy Scouts' policy and comments of support for herself and her family.

"We had lots of feedback, all positive, to my face," she said. "Some people who didn't know about this policy with the Boy Scouts, some who did. Everyone said how absurd this was."

She said the family appreciated the words of support they had received since the incident was made public.

Citing the Wirths' experience with the Boy Scouts, the letter stated:

"This policy of discrimination and exclusion is contrary to the Boy Scouts own stated values. According to Scout law, "A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent." We fail to see how it is friendly, courteous or kind to bar loving parents from volunteering for their child's Cub Scout pack just because of who they love. Furthermore, it is difficult to imagine how singling out the parents of one Scout for exclusion is an example of Scout loyalty."

The letter ends, "We urge you to honor the Boy Scouts' own stated values and reverse this exclusionary and discriminatory policy by providing the opportunity for Cate and Elizabeth Wirth and all other interested Scouts, Leaders, and volunteers to participate, regardless of sexual orientation."

Wirth explained that her 10-year-old son had been involved with Cub Scouts for several years. In that time, she and her partner have volunteered without openly disclosing their relationship.

At a meeting late last year, when she and Elizabeth volunteered to serve, they disclosed their relationship to the district director.

The director responded, "Basically we can't have you be in a leadership role, something like that ... because we wouldn't want you to be pushing your lifestyle on the boys," Wirth said in an interview with the Times Argus in December.

"Scouting is a proud and honorable tradition in this country, but discrimination is not," said Baldwin, who co-chairs the LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender) Equality Caucus, in a statement. "Children with same sex parents deserve the same opportunities to have their parents involved in their scouting experience as their classmates do and I urge the Boy Scouts of America to end this discriminatory policy."

The United States Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling in 2000, declared the Boy Scouts of America can bar homosexuals from being troop leaders.

Wirth said she doubts the letter will change Boy Scout policy, adding, "It would be nice if the letter meant something to the Boy Scouts and they did re-open looking at that policy. I don't really expect that to happen."

She said that although her son hoped to continue in Scouts, and she and her partner supported that decision, they were not aware of any Cub Scout group operating.

"We haven't heard anything about Scouts. I don't know whether the Cub Scouts still exist in this area or not," she said. "I don't think they would have excluded him. Maybe there weren't enough parents to keep it going."








READER COMMENTS


"You cant cite a gay man to show how "gay men do not molest boys".

ML,

How is that any different from quoting a straight guy saying straight men do not molest boys?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 16, 2010, 9:55 pm EST

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Melissa, I quoted from the like. Maybe you didn't read it. It was written by a writer/blogger, NOT a M.D. or P.H.D. or any other expert. You cant cite a gay man to show how "gay men do not molest boys". It is you ignorance that is stunning melissa. You should try comprehending the English language and the definition of terms before you participate further in "intelligent" debates. I guess I win this one.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Tue, Feb 16, 2010, 2:55 pm EST

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ML, you didn't read the link. You never read anything, you like to live in ignorance, I'm done with this subject.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Tue, Feb 16, 2010, 12:07 pm EST

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If it keeps homos away from little boys clubs, by all means . Bigot blah blah ..name calling doesnt matter anymore, doesnt work, dont care, so long as kids are kept away from homos the better off society will be in the end, as the end justifies the means

the same things will happen in another school.
The former Provincetown, Mass., gay rights activist was sentenced on Monday and also must forfeit his Braintree home.
Vermont man has been sentenced to 90 months in federal prison for transporting child pornography over the Internet in what the judge called one of the most egregious cases of child pornography he's ever seen.Sixty-two-year-old John Perry Ryan pleaded guilty to six counts in June in a plea deal that included 2006 charges of transporting a photo of an adult male having sex with a toddler

BSA last safe place for kids from pedophiles and homosexuals
THANK YOU BSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A Teacher
One of the videos Sugarman found on the flash drive showed males he estimated to be 14 or 15 years old masturbating, according to the police affidavit.

A teacher at the Randolph Technical Career Center pleaded innocent Wednesday in Vermont District Court in Chelsea to possession of child pornography following a police investigation that included a search of his home.
William T. Zucca, a 58-year-old Rochester resident, was arraigned on the felony charge two days after a student borrowed a flash drive from Zucca that had pornographic videos on it, according to a police affidavit.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 8:22 pm EST

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Ok fine benny, but they do not push it on you, as an agnostic and former scout, I assure you of that.

Melissa,

How is an adult man molesting a boy not a homosexual act? By having the attraction alone to a "member of the same sex" is what defines homosexuality. Your weak attempt at distracting from that fact is annoying at best. I did not say that gays are child molesters or any other such statement. All I said is, that a man molesting a boy is a homosexual act. I do not care what crazy links you put up. In their opinion, they can partially prevent such acts by not including the people who are are most likely to molest boys. It is not straight men, and according to your own web site, neither is it straight women (or even gay women as, "92% of sex crimes against children are against boys", from your own link). Which leaves us with the only logical conclusion that the only possible males molesting boys, is by definition, homosexuals.

If they did allow gays in, do I think there would there be a huge jump in molestation cases? Probably not. But as the lawyer in the drinking age limit debate said, "you can build a fence around a pool to keep people out, but some will sill get in. If you take the fence down everyone gets through" (or something to that extent).

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 8:22 pm EST

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"I do not agree about the scouts being "taken of by the christian right" in the past 30 years. It is the exact opposite!..."


ML,

I guess nobody told you, but the Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) began a takeover of the Boy Scouts of America some time ago and continues to add Troops and Packs to its bevy each year. They now control twice as many troops and packs as the next religious organization (the United Methodist Church.) The methodists are followed by the Baptists, the Lutherians and the Presbetarians. In fact Religious groups now control 10x (ten times) the number of Troops run by Parent/Teacher groups (other than the PTA), Groups of Private citizens, Businesses and Industries, and Private Schools COMBINED. That's all I was referring to.

And ML,

Since when is the "Christian Right" limited to Catholics (or even primarily refer to Catholics)? Generally and historically, Catholics have been a much more socially liberal group than some other Christians. Religious dogma and social consciousness do not always follow, hand in hand... so you know.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 3:54 pm EST

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http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

Myth: Straight men do not molest young boys.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 1:54 pm EST

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What? You are equating pedophiles with gays ML? Or are you saying that the BSA is doing that and is why the stance on gays? You are a bit evasive again. If it's your stance, I suggest you do your research on pedophiles.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 1:37 pm EST

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Melissa, that site you citied talks about pedophiles. Do you think that their stance on gays is a result of this "problem". After all straight men do not molest boys, that would be gay men.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 1:23 pm EST

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BSA last safe palce for kids from pedophiles
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 10:53 am EST

If you truly believe that you are completely out of touch with reality!

http://www.kosnoff.com/PracticeAreas/The-Boy-Scouts-of.asp

flathead, I'm heterosexual. Are you a happy camper now? Geesh, what a child you are..
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 12:41 pm EST

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AND, I would join your side of the issue if they said, "no CHILD may participate in scouts if their PARENTS are gay". But that is not what they said.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 11:31 am EST

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Follow up to the last paragraph of my last post.

I would also support the GSA from banning all straight men from being leaders too, for the same reasons.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 11:29 am EST

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Benny,

I do not agree about the scouts being "taken of by the christian right" in the past 30 years. It is the exact opposite! Were you ever even in the scouts? I was. The used to say a "prayer" before meals, now they say "grace" to the tune of johnny apple seed,
(Singing)
"The Lord is good to me
And so I thank the Lord
For giving me
The things I need
The sun, the rain and the apple seed.
The lord is good to me"

Thats Catholic to you?

They also have "nondenominational" church services at their outings. It is never "required" to go, and they always talk "god" or "lord" rather than, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad. They are, in my experiences, weakening at the knees from the pressure form the atheist liberal left. They employed the "buddy system" to prevent sexual coercion and misconduct, where anyone must report a "leader" and a "scout" without a matching "scout buddy".

You cant teach kids under 13 to shoot rifles any more, only BB guns and archery. There is less "ecology" and more "scout crafts" (handicrafts). So, to say the christian right is taking over the scouts is not true. The reality of it is, in an all boy club, they do not want "gay" (men in particular, but women must be excluded for fairness) leaders, secluded in the woods, for often days or weeks at a time. They do not want to put themselves in the position the church got themselves into so they are try to avoid the situation all together. It is not about "religious intolerance" it is about covering their own behinds (no pun intended). Their responsibility is to SAFELY teach kids wilderness and survival skills, not to cave to demands of the politically correct elitist on the left. They do not "discriminate" (as you put it) against people on a "religious" ground, but practicalities and to insure the safety of the children. I am not saying that children will be molested rampantly if gays where allowed, but it does open up to door for some cases. After all, straight men do not molest little boys, that is the fact. I am not saying all gay men molest young boys, all I am saying is that straight men do not. That is the view the scouts have taken.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 11:28 am EST

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Bennet

I should have put "wiser" in quotes to get my bit of sarcasm across. Sorry for the misinterpetation. As far as the rights of the blacks I've seen the olive drab school buses in the south for black students, the signs on drinking fountains, the signs outside white rest rooms. My 1st 8 grades of school were in Norwalk, Ct. I knew the good blacks and the bad but my feeling was that there were whites that fit the same categories. I was also in the Navy during the mid sixties when you had to watch your back for the sake of equality. Although one of my best workers in the crew I was in charge of was black. What I'm trying to get across is that I've been there, done that etc. and I concur that it wasn't a pleasant time for all involved.
-- Posted by Ed Kuban on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 10:34 am EST

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Mister Shapiro, you are correct.
Who could say the Supreme Court is "wiser" than everyone else? In fact they excercise their private biases because when elevated to a position of power, that what unethical people do.

As for BSA, I fail to see why boys should learn bigotry. I know as a teacher, boys can be confused about their sexuality. So they may have a small amount of sexual same sex, I find that nothing to be concerned with. They will grow up.

As for Scout Masters, I am not aware gay men are also pedophiles or Hebrophiles.
We could also exclude men from the public schools who are hetrerosexual. They might have an affair with a young female?

You can see how flawed these arguments against gays in the military or scouting
really are.
-- Posted by Mindcat None on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 9:31 am EST

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"I personally don't agree with the BSA dogma but minds wiser than ours proclaimed what they are doing is cconstitutionaly correct."

Ed Kuban,

Since when do right and wrong have to do with what is "Constitutionally correct?" I seem to remember the constitution when it gave women and black people NO VOTE. What a silly argument to make. And to call the Supreme Court "wiser" than us? Better paid? Sure. Well versed in the law? Sure. Did they still make corporations, people? They sure did. Guess there's no accounting for wisdom, huh?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 12:48 am EST

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"What I guess I do not understand about your argument is, why do you care so much? You have admitted that this is not about "rights" it is about "hypocrisy" so why all the outrage and demonization in this in single example of hypocrisy when there are millions of others in our own lives? Are you incapable of understanding that everyone thinks, feels, and acts differently?"

ML,

Thank you for acknowledging the truth. Now, you have asked a reasonable question. To answer: I think its paramount for all of us to point out bigotry, homophobia, racism, sexism, and classism wherever they exist in our culture, because if no one says anything, they continue and they gather strength. They are not unlike cancer. A cancer that has hurt a lot of people in a lot of ways. Look at what's happened to the B.S.A. in just 30 years. They got taken over by the religious right. Sad. Sad, because they were once a symbol for good, who have become part of the problem. Sad because they are now a less tolerant, less desirable helper in the fostering of a society where we all have to live together. And isn't being a good neighbor, what its all about?

Of course, I understand that "everyone thinks, feels, and acts differently." But I also understand that everyone's right to extend their arm, ENDS at the next guys nose. No one should have the right to impose their belief system onto anyone else- whether that's me, or the Boy Scouts if they are claiming to be non-sectarian. Do I have a problem with organized religion? Only as it tries to impose its beliefs (and prejudices) onto me. You may be too young to remember the effects of racism on our country, but I sure as he l l do. This was a country where a black man could and would get beaten to death for kissing a white woman, (let alone having a relationship.) The church protected this kind of evil in the name of "religious freedom." The church fought interracial marriage; it fought equal pay for equal work; it fought the right to the same education for all. I grew up exposed to plenty of racism, sexism, and religious intolerance. I have seen the ugliness and pain that they cause, and I have no desire to go down those roads again. So when I see an organization like the Boy Scouts pulling people in those directions, and they're doing it in a way that's so stupid and plainly bigoted that its easy to point out, WHY WOULDN'T I? Why wouldn't anyone who saw it? Its like telling your neighbor that there's a rabid raccoon in the street across the way. Its just the neighborly thing to do.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, 12:37 am EST

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It has to do with liquor licenses. You will have to be the owner of the building in order to get the license. Just another typical waste of their time and our money. It'll never fly but it just irks me the way business is conducted in Montpelier.H 672 has to do with paid maternity leave for up to 6 weeks.H687 building elevators, and on and on. I get the Weekly Legislative Report from the League of Cities and Towns. You can call them at 802-229-9111 and order it. Pretty interesting reading.
-- Posted by Ed Kuban on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 11:29 pm EST

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It has to do with liquor licenses. You will have to be the owner of the building in order to get the license. Just another typical waste of their time and our money. It'll never fly but it just irks me the way business is conducted in Montpelier.H 672 has to do with paid maternity leave for up to 6 weeks.H687 building elevators, and on and on. I get the Weekly Legislative Report from the League of Cities and Towns. You can call them at 802-229-9111 and order it. Pretty interesting reading.
-- Posted by Ed Kuban on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 11:26 pm EST

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House bill 695?

Nothing comes up under google except one link with one sentence, "An act relating to public school governance". Please, enlighten us all.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 9:43 pm EST

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Greetings simple ones, even you, Bennet.It has been more than a month and you have not settled the BSA fiasco. I am disappointed to no end. You (collective you) have bantered back and forth like a room full of politicians all the while not amounting to a p**s hole in the snow. Have any of you thought about running for an elected office? From what I've read of the posts there is not one of you that has a clue. You have no idea what a bigot is or you would realize that is what you all are. I personally don't agree with the BSA dogma but minds wiser than ours proclaimed what they are doing is cconstitutionaly correct. Also, I don't agree with the lesbian couple subjecting their son to the dog and pony show that they, Welch and 25 of his yahoos trying to make the BSA to buckle under. The youngster is the one that has to put up with other kids picking on him. That will happen as boys will be boys. Oh. I admit that I am a bigot, racist and an all around ignorant SOB and proud of it. Now can the rest of you please settle this topic so that you can get on to something important, such as, would it be wise for the legislature to pass House bill 695?
-- Posted by Ed Kuban on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 8:36 pm EST

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In black and white, you (benny) and the scouts are both bigots... Happy now?

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 5:39 pm EST

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Benny boo hoo,

You say, "The fact that you like to refer to me as a bigot while you excuse the B.S.A.'s bigotry, is funny"

Oh really? Is it a funny fact for you benny boo hoo?

"I do not agree with the scouts stance on gays, I do advocate that it IS THEIR RIGHT to do what they are doing"
ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:48 pm EST

"It absolutely is hypocritical.... people must understand. I do not defend the Scouts actions..."
ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 9:45 pm EST

"And wether it makes sense, [or not], is hyporcritical, wrong, stupid, bigoted, or is intolerant, it does not matter." (listing what the "rule" is in my view)
ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 2:07 pm EST

Oh that is a funny fact benny! So are most of the rest of your "facts".

What I guess I do not understand about your argument is, why do you care so much? You have admitted that this is not about "rights" it is about "hypocrisy" so why all the outrage and demonization in this in single example of hypocrisy when there are millions of others in our own lives? Are you incapable of understanding that everyone thinks, feels, and acts differently? Why should the government get involved with their reprimands and letters? What business is it of theirs or yours? Are you a scout? If not, why do you think you have a say? Why do you not join so then you can have a say? If people are so outraged why is the rule not demanded to be changed from the members within? Why does anyone care unless you are a scout of a homosexual interested in being in the scouts?

And you still never answered my first question, what specifically have the scouts done to hinder the rights of gay community?

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 5:35 pm EST

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Where were teh Benny's and Melissa's when red headed freckled faced kids targeted and beaten jsut because they had red hair and freckles.
Not a peep from the progressive libs. Yet you expect any one to take u seriously when it comes to homos, forget it. not gonna happen

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/11/assault-of-calabasas-boy-is-not-being-investigated-as-a-hate-crime.html

Kick a Ginger Day
.....
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 5:17 pm EST

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"Benny if you want people to take you seriously you need to tighten up your use of terms like, "rights" and "racist" and you need to stop being such a bigot. Your reaction is as bigoted as it gets pal. Wether you will admit it or not, it is...."

ML,

I don't think you understand the popular usage of the word "bigot." The fact that you like to refer to me as a bigot while you excuse the B.S.A.'s bigotry, is funny. Like I said earlier- if the B.S.A. called themselves a Christian organization, I would not be having this discussion. But they don't- they call themselves "NON-SECTARIAN." THEY'RE NOT. Do you acknowledge this? How do you resolve this conflict?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 5:04 pm EST

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Benny your a Progresive Libertarian with your social views that create laws to punish people that dont like gays..hate crime laws blah blah who cares.
murder is murder, obviously to kill someone you dont liek them....moronic laws
........
Thats not Libertarian
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 4:01 pm EST

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ML - Bennett has repeatedly stated in a very clear manner that "rights" aren't the issue, the BSA's violation of their own bylaws is. The amount of willful ignorance you are displaying is staggering.
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 2:23 pm EST

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knowledge**

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 2:12 pm EST

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"You are so not a libertarian"

Again, benny, where do you get off being the judge of all thngs? Where do you derive your infinite wisdom and knowlage? Did you drink from the holy grail? A fountian of knowlage? You really are an arrogant donkey...

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 2:10 pm EST

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"It wants to repeal any state or federal laws denying same-sex partners rights enjoyed by others, such as adoption of children and spousal immigration- which is exactly the issue here."

You are correct, and that is what I support. But that is NOT the issue here, it is the issue that you are trying to make it. IT IS NOT A RIGHT TO BE IN THE SCOUTS!!! Nor is it a public entitie, nor is it a government "club" or any other organization that must accept all people under all circumstances no matter what their mission statement is or any others BS document that is not legally binding.

"They have allowed their hatred of homosexuals to OVERRIDE their standard of non-sectarian participation."

They do not preach "hatred" that is a lie and you know it. And wether it makes sense, is hyporcritical, wrong, stupid, bigoted, or is intolerant, it does not matter. They are a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION. They can make whatever rules they want and you can't do a damn thing about it so long as it does not infringe upon others rights, which the scouts have not done. Why are you this dense? So, the gays should not be allowed to make an exclusively gay club according to you? Who cares what they claim to be, most places/people are not what they claim to be benny, you of all people should know that.

Benny if you want people to take you seriously you need to tighten up your use of terms like, "rights" and "racist" and you need to stop being such a bigot. Your reaction is as bigoted as it gets pal. Wether you will admit it or not, it is....

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 2:07 pm EST

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By the way ML,

You are so not a libertarian. The libertarian position here would be to side with the gay Unitarians and Buddhists, etc. in wanting the ability to exercise equal participation. The Libertarian party wants to REPEAL the defense of marriage act. It wants to repeal any state or federal laws denying same-sex partners rights enjoyed by others, such as adoption of children and spousal immigration- which is exactly the issue here. I told you you were confused about libertarianism.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 1:03 pm EST

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"Benny, you can keep saying over and over again all you want. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to participate in the scouts, it is a privilege. They set the standards."

ML,

I can't believe you're this dense. Actually, of course I believe it. The entire point is that The B.S.A. HAVE SET THE STANDARDS. And THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF THEIR OWN STANDARD. They have allowed their hatred of homosexuals to OVERRIDE their standard of non-sectarian participation. You can't simultaneously claim to be non-sectarian and find homosexuality "morally un-straight." A finding of "morally un-straight" IS SECTARIAN (by definition.) Look it up. Jeez. Dense.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 12:47 pm EST

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Feb 10,2010

The former Provincetown, Mass., gay rights activist was sentenced on Monday and also must forfeit his Braintree home.
Vermont man has been sentenced to 90 months in federal prison for transporting child pornography over the Internet in what the judge called one of the most egregious cases of child pornography he's ever seen.Sixty-two-year-old John Perry Ryan pleaded guilty to six counts in June in a plea deal that included 2006 charges of transporting a photo of an adult male having sex with a toddler

BSA last safe palce for kids from pedophiles and homosexuals
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 10:53 am EST

report this comment



A Teacher
One of the videos Sugarman found on the flash drive showed males he estimated to be 14 or 15 years old masturbating, according to the police affidavit.

A teacher at the Randolph Technical Career Center pleaded innocent Wednesday in Vermont District Court in Chelsea to possession of child pornography following a police investigation that included a search of his home.
William T. Zucca, a 58-year-old Rochester resident, was arraigned on the felony charge two days after a student borrowed a flash drive from Zucca that had pornographic videos on it, according to a police affidavit.

KEEP HOMOSEXUALS OUT OF BSA
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 10:51 am EST

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Benny, you can keep saying over and over again all you want. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT to participate in the scouts, it is a privilege. They set the standards. Soon you will be ticked off at the high school sports teams for no letting the fat kids or the ones who stink on the team. Are you against this too? Are you universally against "standards" for membership to certain groups or is it just against the scouts? COme Benny don't be such a donkey.

What did the scouts do to hinder the gay communities rights? Specifics please?

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 8:39 am EST

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This is just what they had hoped for. Attention. They (gays in general) tend to need attention and for the least bit of attention, negative mostly, they will do most anything. These two people, I shyed away from using the word women, are mythodically calculating their plan. This uproar has not just happened it was planned. The intent of these people was to raise attention to their demise. They didn't care who it took down in the process. They din't think of who it would involve and how it would affect them. They chose to follow their lack of integrity and the common role of a follower as opposed to a leader. They shamelessly drug others into a fight they couldn't, or wouldn't, be able to do on their own. The troops have shown up and they will gladly take the back seat now and watch as this plays out. How weak! The fight others protray should never be worn as an uindividual medal it should be shared, but the initiators shouldn't fall to the rear and allow their comrades to fall in front without lifting thier weapons. These two people are cowards. They have allowed their so-called son take the brunt of this subject yet they have no clue the impact it have on this child later on in life. Weak and shameless! The whole content of this barb is weak and shameless. The idea that we need the congress to fight a group like the Boy Scouts smells of shame and pity. I feel shame for the idiots who have indulged their time and effort on this meaningless subject and I feel pity for the child who never should have been subjected to this. What a waste.
-- Posted by Michael Ducharme on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 7:41 am EST

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HAPPY VALENTINES DAY TO ALL
HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY
HAPPY HAPPY
HAPPY
-- Posted by flathead on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 4:38 am EST

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"WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! so Welch and 25 of his colleagues have already determined that the boy scouts are discriminitory even though nothing has been proven to violate the law?"

truth real,

Since when does something have to be against the law to be discriminatory? Slavery used to be legal. When it was legal, are you trying to tell us that it wasn't discriminatory? How dense are you?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 4:05 am EST

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"If our forefathers wanted USA to only have Christian values. Why would we have this freedom?"

CF,

There you go again. Using logic. Silly. That doesn't work with conservatives. Silly.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 3:56 am EST

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"It is not your job to decide when people are being hypocrites."

ML,

I would hope its not my job. I wouldn't want to threaten my amateur status.

Were you aware that you were not employed to criticize the Obama administration? Doesn't slow you down, does it? Talk about hypocrisy- so you get to criticize what you want, and if you don't like someone else's criticism, then "its not their job?"

You sir, are just sad (I'm shaking my head, but laughing at you a little.)

I noticed you chose not to respond to my point- (made in response to Mr. Right) Just in case you have forgotten, here it was:

"I know you don't care about my religion. I don't care about yours either. Thank God. That's my entire point. What business of the Boy Scouts is it what people do or believe in the privacy of their own homes? They claim to be a "non-sectarian group open to anyone who believes in God." (That's from their own website.) Well, if I believe in God, AND I'm gay, then I should be allowed to participate. They say no, because THEY find gay people to be "morally un-straight." But what they are doing then is SUBSTITUTING their conception of "morally straight" for mine. They are saying that my conception of God isn't valid- that they know what God wants better than I do. And if I don't adhere to THEIR conception of God, then I shouldn't be allowed to participate in their organization. This is arrogance beyond understanding.

The problem with this IS IN THEIR OWN BY-LAWS. Where it states that they are NON-SECTARIAN. That means that people of all different religions get to participate. Including Unitarians and Buddhists and Restorationist Zarathushtians and other religions that accept gay people. Do understand the problem yet?"

That goes for you too, ML? Do you get it yet?
.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Sun, Feb 14, 2010, 3:52 am EST

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Freedom of religion.

If our forefathers wanted USA to only have Christian values. Why would we have this freedom?

Why would Ben Franklin even put the work in since he was not even a Christian?


STOP trying to control others based on your beliefs, morals, ideals, and standards.

Why do Christians and Catholics feel the need to be moral Police?

If they believed and truly followed Jesus' words. Should they NOT judge others? Should they allow others to make mistakes and be judged by the lord?

2000 written years of history. How have the Christians and Catholics faired?

Some could say they have been evil, corrupt, tryants, etc...

YOU ARE NOT PERFECT. STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYONE. JUST LIVE YOUR LIFE TO YOUR MORALS. LET OTHERS LIVE BY THEIRS.

If societal law is broken. Then we will judge them. If not. Don't. Right? (If you actually believed in God's or Jesus' law.)
-- Posted by CF Reality on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 10:35 pm EST

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Catherine,

USA was NOT founded on Christian values.

Ben Franklin was one of the most influential men writing a lot of our documents.

He believed in a God, a supreme being, but did not believe in religious Dogma. How can you be a Christian if you don't believe in Dogma? Ben just realized the importance of organized religion, in his day, for man to be good to fellow man.

Early settlers into the USA were uneducated. If they had any education, at all, it most likely came from religion. So, it makes sense why our forefathers added GOD to the documents. The majority of your people may not have accepted a Government without God. It may have been all they knew and trusted.

It really is just that simple.

Our forefathers were smart. They gave us ways to bypass religion in our Government, in the future. If they really wanted it to be a strict part of their planned society. Would they have done that? No.



But, yes, christian and other religious values have plagued our society for a long time. Some towns, cities, and states had strong faiths and made laws to reflect upon their society.

www.dumblaws.com

You will see a ton of conservative laws that have existed all through the states.

Missionary position is the only legal position...
Oral sex is sodomy. (So we are all guilty of sodomy?)


My point is. Just because people allowed conservatism to corrupt others civil rights, throughout history, doesn't mean USA was founded on these values.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 10:22 pm EST

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"They don't have a right to be involved in their child's lives like other parents, but it's not exclusion of parental rights to be involved in a group that they feel is actually good for their child."

Thats not what I said. I said it is not a "right" to be in the BSA. There are plenty of organizations out there. And if there really really care and want to be involved they could start their own group that takes what they like and corrects the faults of the "scouting way".

" Again, they have no problem with anyone, until they actually tell they are gay, or found out. That just seems hypocritical to me, I don't see why it doesn't to you."

It absolutely is hypocritical, but it is their right as a private organization to have whatever rules they like. It does not matter what you or I think of them, it is what it is. By trying to hinder their right to "free speech", "peaceful assembly", and "private entities" you stand for no better a cause then they do. At least the rights of the scouts are actual rights...

"Meaning for years and years someone can be a leader, they are teaching the kids the proper way of the scouts, they haven't pushed any agenda, they were just being good role models. "

Sure they were, but thats not for you or I to decide in this instance unfortunately.

People must understand. I do not defend the Scouts actions as a libertarian. I defend their right to think the way they do and the operate the way they do. If the gays wanted to make a club that only gays or transgenders could join, that would be fine with me. It is essential to a free society and to diversity that we include all opinions wether or not a "majority" of people think that way or not. It is often what one individual says or does that has the most impact society, lead by example.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 9:45 pm EST

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The United States of America, was founded on Christian values. Native Americans, should get recon, from the U.S. Gov't, before, some false same sex people. How screwed up, is the U.S.A. Gov't!!
-- Posted by Catherine R on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 8:14 pm EST

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Presenting homosexuality, degeneracy, and promiscuity as 'normal, natural, and healthy, is just plan wrong. These two homosexual women, in a same/sex marriage, now want to change the Boy Scouts of American's policy's. Also, asking for Welch's, and the Gov'ts help? How low, can you go?
-- Posted by Catherine R on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 8:04 pm EST

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"Welch, 25 colleagues ask for end discrimination against homosexuals."

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! so Welch and 25 of his colleagues have already determined that the boy scouts are discriminitory even though nothing has been proven to violate the law? Does Welch have influence over the courts?

Maybe Welch and his cronies need to face lawsuits in order to point out to them that they arent the final say. WAKE UP IDIOTS OF VERMONT!

i hope you people that support this type of behaivor dont think you are exempt from it! Welch and his elected cronies will stab you in the back in a second if it benefits their agenda!

.
-- Posted by truth real on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 7:47 pm EST

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And another loser from Vermont

hahahha
An employer who was ready to hire a student from Vermont Technical College in Randolph Center changed his mind after seeing the student's Facebook page, says Lauri Sybel, director of the college career center. Since then, Sybel says she has checked other students' pages to make sure they weren't hurting their job prospects.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 5:53 pm EST

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Maybe this dumb kid shouldve shut his mouth, he got booted out of college after all his happy rants about bay escapades

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2006-03-08-facebook-myspace_x.htm
In January, he was kicked out of school, his virtual paper trail of musings about boyfriends and visits to clubs a clear sign to administrators that, despite repeated warnings, Guinn's activities were in violation of campus conduct codes stating that behavior must "affirm and honor Scripture."
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 5:50 pm EST

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MB, You are what I think you are. A person does not have to be childish to ask a question. Actually the worst is not to ask a question. Answer to your question. I don't care, but it would have been nice to hear it from you that is if you aren't embarressed to answer. No problem. I can't wait to hear from your buddy BS.
-- Posted by flathead on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 3:04 pm EST

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"Melissa, you dont have to lie about who you are, only if you join the scouts. So why would you join if you know that? Nobody HAS to join the scouts thats the fault in you argument.

I agree with both of your grievances, I feel it is classless, intolerant, and bigoted. But then again, so are you when you go to the opposite extreme as you both have done. You can not be against the BSA for excluding gays, then advocate to exclude the scouts from everything. That is no different that what the scouts are doing. Two wrongs do not make it right.

What did the scouts do to hinder the gay communities rights? Specifics please. (If you can't answer this it may be because they haven't)"


So parents who are gay, are being excluded from volunteering from an organization that is about helping kids, getting parents involved in what happens in their child's lives, so these parents are being excluded because they are gay. That's not hurting anyone to you ML? They don't have a right to be involved in their child's lives like other parents, but it's not exclusion of parental rights to be involved in a group that they feel is actually good for their child. Again, they have no problem with anyone, until they actually tell they are gay, or found out. That just seems hypocritical to me, I don't see why it doesn't to you. Meaning for years and years someone can be a leader, they are teaching the kids the proper way of the scouts, they haven't pushed any agenda, they were just being good role models.

How am I going to the opposite extreme? Are you talking about religion in schools? If you are, and you're being evasive, you're wrong. This thread can attest to that.

Flathead, the question you posed was childish in my eyes, what difference would it make if I was lesbian to you in this discussion or any other?
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 12:41 pm EST

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Obvious, The actors in the Bennett Shapiro / Melissa B "show" can't read or are entitled to their privacy, answering a simple question from my last post would explain a lot. Note: Don't try and ruin a great establishment like the Scouts. Don't try and ruin anything, especialy other peoples comments and opinions. Good morning.
-- Posted by flathead on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 6:32 am EST

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AYK,

America is built on the realization that there are many different people with many different beliefs. Not everyone in America is Christian.

People came to America to be free of religious persecution. Here they can decide, for themselves, which religious beliefs they will believe in. Or none at all if that be their wish.


It has nothing to do with guilt trips or being a liberal.

Personally, I have no problem with BSA keeping their ideals. As long as they are completely honest with everyone from the start.

Because I never would have joined if I knew it was some secret religious cult.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, 1:13 am EST

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Thank you Boy Scouts for standing by your rules and principles and morals. You are a beacon of hope for all Christians .
Dont afall for the guilt trips and the gutter snipes of the progressive liberalisms. For they do not know what they are doing, insanity and educated fools.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 6:43 pm EST

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"P.S. It looks like God likes socialized medicine more than our system too, because life expectancy is better all across Europe than it is here."

What do you know about God benny? About as much as you know about everthing else it seems. I really like your use of sound logic....

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 4:51 pm EST

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Benny boop,

It is not your job to decide when people are being hypocrites. It is a private organization and they can do as they please so long as they do not infringe others rights. It is not a right to be in scouts, any more debating beyond this point is asinine.

Melissa, you dont have to lie about who you are, only if you join the scouts. So why would you join if you know that? Nobody HAS to join the scouts thats the fault in you argument.

I agree with both of your grievances, I feel it is classless, intolerant, and bigoted. But then again, so are you when you go to the opposite extreme as you both have done. You can not be against the BSA for excluding gays, then advocate to exclude the scouts from everything. That is no different that what the scouts are doing. Two wrongs do not make it right.

What did the scouts do to hinder the gay communities rights? Specifics please. (If you can't answer this it may be because they haven't)

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 4:49 pm EST

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CF Reality,

If the religious folks really wanted to look at what God wants, all they would have to do is look at the numbers. Look at where God lets people live the longest- Macao. (The U.S. ranks about 50th in terms of longevity in the world. I guess God doesn't like us as much.)

About 80% of the people in the U.S. call themselves Christians. About 80% of the people in Macao are Buddhists. The average life expectancy in the U.S. is 78. The average life expectancy in Macao is 84.

Based on these numbers, who does God like more?

P.S. It looks like God likes socialized medicine more than our system too, because life expectancy is better all across Europe than it is here.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 1:11 pm EST

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We can agree, but you said "As for education on homosexuality. Teaching children diversity is not a bad thing", Teaching homosexuality is happening now, it is the BSA's point fo view that is not being taught. Thus it is not diverse. Or we could have school choice and the parents can choose what their kids will be taught (ie the scouts side or the gays side or both or neither)

ML

The discussion got sidetracked, per usual by ayk. We got into school discussions, sorry, my bad for even bothering with her. The BSA's point of view is as long as we don't know you are gay, you can be a leader. How hypocritical is that ML? These ladies have been volunteering for sometime, they decided to let people know 'honestly' that they are a couple. The moral question is, if they are about honesty, then why should anyone have to lie about who they are? They had no problem with them until they said they were married.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 11:22 am EST

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Bennett Shapiro.....Are you gay?
Melissa B...Are you a lesbian?
-- Posted by flathead on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 9:02 am EST

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Sometimes Bennett,

I also think a few are seriously scared and truly do fear God. And they believe, in their heart, that he is against it. Maybe they fear they will be collateral damage in his wrath? So they do and say anything in hopes of protecting themselves?

That may explain some of the silly arguments. Their fear and desperation is showing?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, 3:31 am EST

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CF Reality,

Do you ever get the idea that the people we're having these discussions with are just slow?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 11:13 pm EST

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Being Gay is a choice?


For those that believe it. Test it out. Make the choice to be Gay.

How did it work out for you?

Maybe those that are bisexual can choose, based on the person they fall in love with. That makes sense to me if they are truly attracted to both males and females.

I'm a straight man. And I am attracted to women. There is nothing about men that turn me on. There is NO switch I could flip, or any decision I could make, that would ever change it.


Did you have to force yourself to like women, Paul? Do you think you made the choice to like women or did it come natural? If it came natural to you that you liked men, would you have made the decision and forced yourself to like women?


It truly isn't a moral or ethical choice. Like the conservative corruption tells us in the bible.

It's not like deciding if you should rob a bank or not. Shoot someone or not. Etc....

If you naturally just had a strong attraction for the same sex and felt nothing, sexually and physically, for the opposite sex. Was that a decision they made? Or is that what came natural to them?


I'm starting to wonder if those that think it is a choice, are just truly angry with their choice.

I wonder if they are upset because they did make the choice to be *normal*, to be accepted, and are upset of those that are strong enough to truly accept who they were? And are not forcing themselves to be something they are not?

Hmmmm....
-- Posted by CF Reality on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 10:58 pm EST

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Paul None.

Homosexuality is COMPLETELY normal for about 5 per cent of the population. In the same way that being left-handed is completely normal for about 7 per cent of the population. Or about two per cent of the population is red-headed. Just because they're different from you, doesn't mean they aren't NORMAL. Or are red-heads ABNORMAL?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 9:02 pm EST

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Sorry, ML, I posted the wrong quote of yours. I meant to post:

"I dont care how many times you prove you are a bigot, I will still pounce you. If you want "rights" to do what you want, you have to support others "rights" to do what they want, especially rights in which YOU DO NOT AGREE!"
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 8:57 pm EST

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"I think the loss of freedom was, as a result of, not in anticipation of, terrorist activities. Just the end of december the "underwear bomber" tried to blow up a plane, is that exaggerated?"

Again, ML,

I ask if you have read the previous posts? My argument about the Scouts is that they are in violation of THEIR OWN BYLAWS. This is easily demonstrable. What is your argument that they AREN'T? If you don't have one, why are you posting?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 8:55 pm EST

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I don't believe it's a birth defect either. Defects indicate that you can't function normally. Homosexuals are as physically fit and intelligent as anyone else on the planet.

-- Posted by Isaac Demers on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 11:36 am EST

Precisely the point Isaac. Homosexuals make the choice to not function normally. It's not about intelligence or physical ability. They have the ability to "function normally" but make the choice not to. Wanting to is not normal by any definition of what is normal as defined by nature. And we're supposed to just go along with that and make it okay? I don't think so. Homosexual behavior is not normal and you can accept that or not just as much as you can expect me to accept your perspective. Because I don't you call me a bigot, a hater, a homophobe, whatever. I don't need to call you names because you think differently than I do. Why am I thought of as bad for my beliefs and it's not okay for others to think of you the same way?
-- Posted by Paul None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 8:37 pm EST

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If the Boy Scouts let gays in will there be a "merit badge" for skipping?

I couldn't resist...........
-- Posted by Olde Man on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 5:07 pm EST

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What did the scouts do to hinder the gay communities rights? Specifics please.

ml
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 4:09 pm EST

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We can agree, but you said "As for education on homosexuality. Teaching children diversity is not a bad thing", Teaching homosexuality is happening now, it is the BSA's point fo view that is not being taught. Thus it is not diverse. Or we could have school choice and the parents can choose what their kids will be taught (ie the scouts side or the gays side or both or neither)

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 4:06 pm EST

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Well ML, I disagree with that, I said diversity in my first post, and diversity I meant. the world is filled with all kinds of beliefs and social systems, kids should not be denied the knowledge of what is going on in the real world. They need to be ready for what's out there, and to not teach them about everything, they are being robbed.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 3:30 pm EST

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What did the scouts do to hinder the gay communities rights? Specifics please.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:51 pm EST

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Thats all you got? Weak.

When you are getting stomped you all do the same thing. I do not understand why you (benny) are willingly so stupid. I forgot one S on the end of lets, boo hoo, I have to filter out all your ignorance all the time, you can deal with the few errors I make.

I dont care how many times you prove you are a bigot, I will still pounce you. If you want "rights" to do what you want, you have to support others "rights" to do what they want, especially rights in which YOU DO NOT AGREE! I do not agree with the scouts stance on gay, I do advocate that it IS THEIR RIGHT to do what they are. You just want everyone to think like you do on every topic, which is your true bigoted self, by every definition of the word.

Melissa, that was not what I was saying, I was saying that they teach religious intolerance in schools by not teaching all sides of the cube as they currently do.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:48 pm EST

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"please stop bigotmongering. You can not fight for equality when that is not what you advocate. If you were truly in favor of equality melissa, then they would teach intolerance in school as well as tolerance (like the do with religion already) it is not "fair" or "equal" if one groups rights is trampled in the name of "equal rights"

Hey Dough Brain,
I've always stood for allowing religion being taught in social studies, all of them, you really do look foolish when you come in and rant so clueless!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:31 pm EST

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Especially her song Broken English. Awesome!!!!
-- Posted by carl None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:13 pm EST

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"Let think more AND FEEL LESS FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIVES."

And ML,

I wasn't going to say anything, but "Let spell more and d i c k less for once in your life."
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:10 pm EST

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That I love her singing lol
-- Posted by carl None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:09 pm EST

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"Now I know why the first letters of your name start in B.S."

Carl,

Beautifully crafted argument- wonderful use of logic. I'd love to read what you write to Marianne Faithfull.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:08 pm EST

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ML,

The answers to your questions are in my responses to Mr. Right's posts. If you'd read the thread, you'd know that. God, you look dumb.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:04 pm EST

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No need to explain CF. your right Im wrong. Keep thinking that lol I am done talking to a wall By
-- Posted by carl None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:03 pm EST

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benny and melissa,

please stop bigotmongering. You can not fight for equality when that is not what you advocate. If you were truly in favor of equality melissa, then they would teach intolerance in school as well as tolerance (like the do with religion already) it is not "fair" or "equal" if one groups rights is trampled in the name of "equal rights". And benny, I still am waiting to hear who left you king of the world and sol decider of important issues. You are a tool pal, get over yourself. You have no clue about what you are talking about.

What did the scouts do to hinder the gay communities rights? Specifics please. Everything you advocate eliminates other peoples rights and freedoms benny boop the bigot. Taxes, welfare, schooling, social engineering, wealth redistribution, gun laws, scouts, gays, business, markets, and on and on. Your position on the previous issues is in direct contradiction to you lifes mission of freedom and equality. So if you want to debate then here I am, If you want to keep letting other people tell you how to think, or if you are just going to regurgitate liberal talking points save it for people who are stupid enough to not know it is lies and deceit. I would start with your friends and family benny, the apple never does fall far from the tree.

It is not a right to be accepted by everyone else, it is a fantasy and not possible no matter how many government mandates you support and implement. Let think more AND FEEL LESS FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIVES.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 1:14 pm EST

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"CF : You do not know me and are totally incorrect about my attitudes,beliefs and feelings. You and many like you try to stereotype people like myself as hate mongers , radicals. I have priorities and fighting for gay rights instead of feeding my family keeping the country safe watching my children grow happy in a safe environment is not more important then these other issues. This couple has all the rights as I see it .And I do not think this economy is in full swing back. I think you are delusional if you believe it. Its not that I don't want this crap CF its because really dont believe its that important in the grand scheme of issues.
-- Posted by carl None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 7:01 am EST "


Carl,

My point is simple.

These more important issues that you stress will always be issues in many people's minds. As they are in mine. But if our opinions always differ, then ANY changes will never be good enough for everyone.

So if we are ALL never completely happy with every topic you have, which we will never be completely happy on. Then we should never discuss another topic?



You also misunderstood me. I mean the economy and market have already been swung in the right direction. Most business owners are like you in that they want to make sure, over time, that the economy and market are stable before they reinvest in employee's.

Jobs are always the last to come back. It takes years.

Should we not do anything else, or discuss anything, while waiting to see if the changes take affect?


Governor Douglas used this same defense on Gay Marriage. "We have more important matters to discuss and spend our time on."

Then you know what he did EVEN after knowing that most legislators were for Gay Marriage?

He wasted more time by veto'n the bill knowing, and admitting, that it would be overturned. What does that tell you?

It tells me that he would rather NOT spend time discussing the issue in hopes that it will deter any change in the near future. But after it changed a way that he didn't like. And knew there was little chance of correcting the issue. He decided it was worth wasting more time hoping it would be reconsidered. But he knew there was very little chance of that happening.

Why did he do it? If he felt it was just a waste of time?

Truth is, it is an issue worth his time. He was just presently happy with the current laws. He didn't want them to change and saw no need for them to change. But when he no longer agreed with the laws. It was worth his time, and our legislators time, even when ADMITTING there was little chance of winning.

Do you understand or do I need to keep explaining?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 12:45 pm EST

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oh blah blah blah........here we are again. You know blacks are black because they were born that way. Gays are choice. Look at the custody battle of the lesbians....one woman chose to go straight after having her fun with a woman. So being gay is a choice! Black have no choice, they are what they are and saying today I chose not to be is not an options for them.......same with white your white cuz you were born that way! Whites and blacks are a race, gays are a group of people who want to flant their choice!!
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 12:00 pm EST

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Well AYK, newsflash, the world doesn't evolve around you. Just because you didn't notice something going on around you, doesn't mean it wasn't already happening back then. I saw a student councilor in grade school for issues I was having at home. That was in the mid 70's.

As for education on homosexuality. Teaching children diversity is not a bad thing, but for you it is, you feel the world should evolve around your beliefs and no one elses. That's life, live in it deary!

Or homeschool!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 11:05 am EST

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CF : You do not know me and are totally incorrect about my attitudes,beliefs and feelings. You and many like you try to stereotype people like myself as hate mongers , radicals. I have priorities and fighting for gay rights instead of feeding my family keeping the country safe watching my children grow happy in a safe environment is not more important then these other issues. This couple has all the rights as I see it .And I do not think this economy is in full swing back. I think you are delusional if you believe it. Its not that I don't want this crap CF its because really dont believe its that important in the grand scheme of issues.
-- Posted by carl None on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 7:01 am EST

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Carl,

It's easier to knock a bridge down than it is to rebuild it.


The economy is already on a full swing in the right direction. The market and everything is looking much better in just a year's time.


Jobs are always the last to come back. And always take time to come back. Employers would rather overwork their current employee base and give overtime than commit to a rehire. Especially so soon.


They will start rehiring once they burn out their current employee's. Or a lot of positions may not need to be rehired.

You see, some people are really good at multitasking and have been doing the tasks of 3 jobs. As the quantity of work grows and grows. The person just get's better and better at it. Eventually they may need to, or not, hire 1 more to help. Or maybe that one person will be able to handle it all.


Lastly, many companies will work their current employee's this hard because they want to make up for that lost income/profits.




So, the question is, do we have time to talk about these rights while we are waiting for the economy to strenghthen?

Sure! Look at you and everyone here typing. Obviously it seems worth it to you and you are just playing the, I don't want this crap I'll break out the "It's not as important as everything else" card. Truth is, if you could always put "more important" issues ahead of this one. You would make sure this issue would never be spoke of again.

Just admit it. You don't want it. You don't like it. And you wish it would just go away and never return.

It's OK to say. We already know it's true.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, 2:26 am EST

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"Homosexual behaviors are the opposite of Boy Scout virtues.

Really, its that simple.
Homosexual behavior exhibits opposites.... Polar opposites

-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 3:35 pm EST"



Since when did "SEX" have anything to do with the BS of A?

If SEX, the act of, plays NO role in the BS of A! Then what the hell are you talking about?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 10:55 pm EST

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Good for you Ben Speak right up Enjoy the Freedom you think you have and at the same time have a good time in the unemployment line. Now I know why the first letters of your name start in B.S. This battle you Believe in is carp and you know it Its just smoke and mirrors to divert the bs thats going on in our GOVT.
-- Posted by carl None on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 9:18 pm EST

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""................ name is actually "Ignorance." It's what she's all about. Without ignorance how could she continue along her bitter and bigoted lifestyle"

coydog,

Calling this one a "personal attack" is a bit of a stretch. "Ignorant, bitter, and bigoted" are all pretty demonstrable attributes of someone on these boards who will remain initialed. Its hard sometimes (for me too) not to respond to hatred and animosity with like sentiments. I do appreciate your attempt at helping keep the conversation civil. Thanks for that. If you could point this out to folks on the right too, that would be great. When someone calls the Unitarian church "nothing more than a Cult or a Voodoo Gathering" I think that counts as a "personal attack." I mean that's a lot of people's church, for God's sake. Anyway, I appreciate the spirit in which what you are saying is intended,.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 9:10 pm EST

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"You people are incredible. Old Man Is correct . There are way too many pressing issues here in VT that need attention .Lets not worry about another feel good bunch of crap. Work on it later after the more pressing issue are resolved. Jobs. the economy , schools,taxes etc."

Carl,

We are far and beyond the richest nation on the planet. If you don't mind, I'll work on FREEDOM AND EQUALITY FIRST. Let's take care of the important stuff, and then we can worry about making more money, second.

Yours in priority,
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 8:55 pm EST

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PreK- Why are the taxpayers paying for PREK???!!!
Bad enough the school get the kids at 6-18. Is Prek another way to either get the kids earlier to shape their little minds? Indoctrination as early as they can now?
OR is it State FUNDED DAYCARE?

Wanna save money?
Scrap the PreK. There are people that earn aliving through their home day cares or whatever daycares. The state takes our tax money to essentially pay for daycare in the form of PreK, astoundingly ridiculous
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 6:36 pm EST

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Unitarian church is nothing more than a cult like the Westboro Baptist Church or a Voodoo Gathering
One uses God as the excuse to allow gays to have a platform and a 'church mouthpiece" and the other uses God and the Church to strictly address moral issues. And the gays area bunch of chickens so they hijack a church like Unitarian to do their bidding.
So when any gay topic comes up, the Unitarians send their rep for their dog and pony show. See see we have a church, see its okay,,,,,gimme a break
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 6:28 pm EST

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Lil Missy-
I repost because you seem to have a problem with comprehension.
When I was in school vs the bull they slip into the school cirriculum now

Leave all that gay crap and political and religious topics for parents. Why dont the gays do anything in the open, instead they slip their sneaky diversity stuff into school syllabus HIDDEN in science and social studies classes.
If schools had sex ed and it included homo topics, parents can opt out. Sorry Some of us dont want our kids to know about homos or their sexual behavior, or be taught anything along those lines, its not okay.

I didnt learn about how the schools snuck this crap in until the civil union hearings at the state house where I met some people from Barre and they had information on what was being taught in schools.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 6:20 pm EST

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"................ name is actually "Ignorance." It's what she's all about. Without ignorance how could she continue along her bitter and bigoted lifestyle?

bring her out of the darkness, into the light................ giving the bats white-nose disease as she lurks in caves during the day, coming out only in
the dark."

Always personal attacks........
-- Posted by coydog on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 5:43 pm EST

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You people are incredible. Old Man Is correct . There are way too many pressing issues here in VT that need attention .Lets not worry about another feel good bunch of crap. Work on it later after the more pressing issue are resolved. Jobs. the economy , schools,taxes etc. Leave this Gay rights issue on the back burner. Haven't we had enough. I am sorry for these two people but get over it already. Id rather help people survive. not spend the Govts time on this BS issue. And dont hand me the RIGHTS card as they knew what was going on.
-- Posted by carl None on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 4:20 pm EST

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Reposting.. Was conveniently ignored by those that believe gays should stay hidden.

Announcing ones sexual orientation is saying I'm married too...

Do any of you hide your husband or wife from the public?

So cate and elizabeth, a married couple should never tell anyone they are spouses?

Really? You announce you're a hetero everytime you announce your opposite sex spouse.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 3:12 pm EST

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Mr. Right,

Actually, I realize that there are plenty of "Christian" churches (like the Unitarians) who accept gay people, too. I guess they couldn't call themselves Christians and disallow gay folks either.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 3:10 pm EST

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"Bennett i really dont care about your religion or anyone elses to be honest with you. I am not a religious person I am an honest person, these two gays brought this on themselfs by announcing they are gay, if they kept thier mouths shut they would have this problem"

Mr. Right,

I think you mean "wouldn't" have this problem.

My question is, how does the kid the scout both adhere to the Scout code (demanding honesty) and not say that his Mom's are gay? Or to paraphrase Admiral Mike Mullen (of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) how do we simultaneously ask our Scouts to participate and be dishonest about who their parents are?

I know you don't care about my religion. I don't care about yours either. Thank God. That's my entire point. What business of the Boy Scouts is it what people do or believe in the privacy of their own homes? They claim to be a "non-sectarian group open to anyone who believes in God." (That's from their own website.) Well, if I believe in God, AND I'm gay, then I should be allowed to participate. They say no, because THEY find gay people to be "morally un-straight." But what they are doing then is SUBSTITUTING their conception of "morally straight" for mine. They are saying that my conception of God isn't valid- that they know what God wants better than I do. And if I don't adhere to THEIR conception of God, then I shouldn't be allowed to participate in their organization. This is arrogance beyond understanding.

The problem with this IS IN THEIR OWN BY-LAWS. Where it states that they are NON-SECTARIAN. That means that people of all different religions get to participate. Including Unitarians and Buddhists and Restorationist Zarathushtians and other religions that accept gay people. Do understand the problem yet?

If they just called themselves a Christian organization, we would not be having this conversation. There are lots of Christian organizations who don't allow people of differing belief systems in, and while I find these kind of groups silly, I certainly support their right to exist. ON THE OTHER HAND, this is the Boy Scouts of America we're talking about- NOT a CHRISTIAN organization. It says its open to anyone who believes in GOD. What a bunch of hypocrites and liars. Do you get it now? Or do I have to say again more slowly...

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 3:03 pm EST

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You're full of it AYK, I don't believe you have kids in school. You didn't even know there's been a student councilor for students for over 30 years. You are nothing but a troll that searches the web and cuts and pastes other people's posts. You constantly contradict yourself by doing so, I do not take you seriously on any subject, and highly doubt many do besides a couple of other trolls.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 3:00 pm EST

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The surpreme court has never been wrong before.. (sarcasm)
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 2:52 pm EST

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This will be my final post on this article. It takes too long to scroll down to the "post a comment" section. I hope the boy gets to join the scouts because he will be the one that will decide if it is for them and not. Oh, by the way the scouts are not for the parents. IT"S FOR THE BOYS.
-- Posted by flathead on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 2:48 pm EST

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Yeah, AyK - we already read your post about teh farkness.
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 2:32 pm EST

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The Us Supreme court said this isnt a civil rights issue, so what do the gays try next?

Science.

Parents can opt their kids out of sex ed inschool if they want, so the gays stuck the diversity and homosexual BS into the science and social studies cirriculum.
Most parents dont realize their kids are being taught this in teh schools because they hide it in other classes. Pretty sneaky, but typical lib like.

Parents need to check their schools classes like I did. Oh it may seem like an innocuous class, but inside in the middle of the syllabus they have homosexuality, sugared over by diversity and the love everyone BS. Social studies especially, the kids have to be lectured on teh biased side of global warming, stem cell research, diversity, global this and that. Its an eye opener and troubling propaganda and indoctrination? All social issues to benefit lib agenda, take a gander.

The liberal agenda cant change our adult minds, so they start young get the kids at preK levels now. No more K, kids atart school at Pre-k. What a cover under teh farkness.

This is why the libs always show polls of people under 25, theyvebeen brainwashing kids for years, so their group of soldiers have been happy to agree with global this and that, world peace, gay loving, happpy happy Utopia. Bluebirds and lemonade.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 2:16 pm EST

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@AYK
-- Posted by Dick C on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 1:09 pm EST

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It's not an "argument" any more than it would be for me to arbitrarily decide that conservatism is a mental disorder.
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 12:32 pm EST

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I don't believe it's a birth defect either. Defects indicate that you can't function normally. Homosexuals are as physically fit and intelligent as anyone else on the planet.
-- Posted by Isaac Demers on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 11:36 am EST

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"Homosexuality is a birth defect" is not a fact.
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 11:25 am EST

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I too am in support of people being educated to the facts. Such as; homosexuality is genetic. Homosexuality is a birth defect. That doesn't make a person bad. The behavior most often associated with being homosexuality involves engaging in, or the desire to engage in, sexual acts with a member of your own gender. That's not normal. It deviates from the norm established by nature and engaging in this type of behavior is therefore deviant. Those are facts and not based on or in hate or blame or negative judgement. It's about acceptance of the facts and an appreciation and respect for how nature intended us to be. Religion and politics have no place in this discussion.
-- Posted by Paul None on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 9:48 am EST

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Isaak, AyK's middle name is actually "Ignorance." It's what she's all about. Without ignorance how could she continue along her bitter and bigoted lifestyle?

Don't feel too bad for her, however, Isaak. It's fully self-imposed. Many have tried and all have failed in the attempt to bring her out of the darkness, into the light. As I think about it, maybe AyK is giving the bats white-nose disease as she lurks in caves during the day, coming out only in the dark.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 9:20 am EST

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Guess what, Are you Kidding?, homosexuals exist. Of course they are going to appear in what students are taught in school. You can't wipe them away just becuase you refuse to acknowledge them personally. The other topics you mentioned are all in the news daily too. They are relevant and what is happening in the world right now (and teachers cover lots of other things besides the items you have singled out to try and make your point here). Do you really want a United States full of people who know nothing about these topics? Ignorance is not the answer.
-- Posted by Isaac Demers on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 9:07 am EST

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Richnone-
This isnt about whites and blacks. Most black people are in fact very spiritual and Do not go along with being used by the gay agenda as a vehicle to call it civil rights, it is not.
My black acquatances do not like gays using their suffrage as an excuse for immoral behaviors.

How many gays have been riding on the back of the bus last year before gay marriage?
How many water fountains said gays and hetero's before last year?
How many colleges have hetero only and gay only?

Sorry your civil rights baloney doesnt wash, progressive libs always find someone or some group to attach themselves to and ride along on someone else argument.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 8:17 am EST

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Now do u libs see why they have 'Dont ask, Dont Tell"?

This is another perfect example, of the gays not living in harmony with society, but imposing their lifestyle on others via media and courts and trying to change society's principle's and convictions.

These 2 women wrote the article in paper for the controversy, thats what the thrive on,
It isnt going to make anyone like them anymore, but its the opposite for using a young boy as a pawn to push their agenda,
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 8:10 am EST

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RICH NONE -- what is your issue -- only whites are discriminatory?? What about the NAACP, as a white person I don't get money from them. What about BET, I can't be on that, what about the Telemundo, I can't be on that, etc. You see RICH NONE, there are many, many organizations that have rules that are authored for a certain sector, i.e., Italian organizations, Irish organizations, Catholic, Islamic, Morman and Jewish organizations/churches/temples, and those I listed above. Whites are NOT the only race that discriminates. If this is the Boy Scouts creed, then so be it. Also, I was under the impression that the boy of this horn-blowing couple is still in the Scouts, it is his mothers that are barred from volunteering.
-- Posted by Emile Lacasse on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 7:28 am EST

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Bennett i really dont care about your religion or anyone elses to be honest with you. I am not a religious person I am an honest person, these two gays brought this on themselfs by announcing they are gay, if they kept thier mouths shut they would have this problem
-- Posted by Mr. Right on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 7:04 am EST

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Ed I actually fell out of my chair laughing at that comment. But seriously the biggotsof the world really need to wake up because they are the first ones that god is going to strike down when he comes again in 2012 with the Myans riding on the cloud beside him.....
Hold on tight people its going to be a bumpy ride!!1 :) lol
-- Posted by Dave Erwin on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, 1:06 am EST

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I have nothing against homosexuals. Know a few and so far I have not caught their "disease" or what ever it is that makes them the way they are. I warn people not to get too close to me, as they may catch my alcoholism. Got to be on
your guard all the time these days. BSA's stance against gays has played out its hand. Years ago it was to protect the little ones from sexual preditors. They figured if you had a bit of limp wrist you would more than likely harm the little ones. Should have put their efforts in controlling priests. Any way for the record, Jesus said to love your neighbor as in not hating nor harming him. Didn't say a thing about running next door and corn holing the person.
-- Posted by Ed Kuban on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:04 pm EST

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There's something fishy about this story. The entire nation knows the BSA stance against homosexuality. Right or wrong. It's DISINGENUOUS of these two women to act offended. They knew full well what the reaction of the BSA would be. They knew and they were counting on it. I think it's healthy to disagree. It's their right to protest the BSA. It's their right to demand a change of policy. However it's total horse manure to act surprised that they were rejected. I would respect them if they left out the acting and just proceeded with their protest of an extremely well known BSA policy.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 8:28 pm EST

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VT Yankee is contaminating the groundwater in the southern part of the state and potentially the CT river and you fools are digging at the BSA!
FOOLS!
Pull your collective heads out and pay attention to the REAL issues! Leave the BSA AND their values ALONE!
Go protest something worthwhile...........FOOLS!
-- Posted by Say NO to China on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 7:41 pm EST

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Any organization that allows discrimination against ANYONE - gay, straight or otherwise - tacitly or explicitly - just plain needs to change.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It is not contagious, there is no "homosexual agenda" - if there were, I wish I'd get an invite, I hear "the gays" really know how to throw a party!

Get with the program, BSA!!!!!!!
-- Posted by Reasonable Moderate on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 6:11 pm EST

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AYK... you said:

"Why cant the gays RESPECT other organizations that want nothing to do with them?

Groups and organizations of all kinds are formed and people congregate according to being with people of the same beliefs and interests. Human nature to want to be with people whom you can relate to. You like boats, join boating club. You like church and GOD, you join likeminded groups. You like nature, join sierra club. The Boy Scouts Club is the antithesis of homosexual behaviors. "

Tell me, AYK, when white people didn't want black people to go into the white bars....
when white people didn't want black people to sit in the front area of a bus.....
when white people could vote, but didn't wan't black people to vote.....

were YOU in support of all that too?
-- Posted by Rich None on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 6:05 pm EST

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CF Reality,

I was a Scout, too. My troop definitely wasn't bigoted. I think our Scout-master might have been gay. He was a very nice old guy. The institutional bigotry in Scouts is definitely a new thing. At least in the last 30 years or so.

AYK says that scouting and being gay are exhibiting "polar opposites." Well, the opposites (or antonyms as we in the English speaking world call words of opposite meanings) of "trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent" are "indecent, deceptive, injurious, disobliging, rude, mean, thoughtless, heavyhearted, lavish, cowardly, and dishonest."

I guess we know what AYK (and by extension, the Boy Scouts) think of gay people. She thinks that gay people are all Fortune 500 company executives. Wow, AYK- I couldn't have gotten there without you.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 4:19 pm EST

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Homosexual behaviors are the opposite of Boy Scout virtues.

Really, its that simple.
Homosexual behavior exhibits opposites.... Polar opposites
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 3:35 pm EST

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My point is...

You asked of these virtues from us, "A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent."

Should we not assume the same from you? Should you not be trustworthy? Should we be allowed to be duped into your organization on false pretenses?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 1:06 pm EST

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To the BSA,

I hope you see the value of these changes. I think it is the right stance to take.

When I joined and was a member of the BSA. I never knew religion played a role. I didn't join a religious cult. I didn't know I joined a group that was discriminating against others.

I thought I joined a group of friends spending time together, learning together, and building friendships with each other. Some of these people were gay. I didn't know it then. But would it have made a difference? I know it now and it doesn't make a difference.


Last time this topic came up. Someone posted 100's of names of respected people, from the past, that were in the BSA and/or became Eagle Scouts.

This was their defense against GAYS and all of this. Because they felt these good people, and important to human achievement, shared the same beliefs. So it should remain.

But I want to ensure you. Until a few months ago, when that letter was written, I didn't know your position. So how can we be sure that everyone, in the past, was aware and accepted this position? Simple, we cannot.


I think it is time to decide.

Will you remain a hidden religious cult accepting discrimination?

Or are you really for the children?



I enjoyed my time with the BSA. I enjoyed it all.

But, now, I am ashamed that I was a member of this organization. I was duped into this organization on FALSE grounds and pretenses.

I don't care which you choose. But either way you choose. Stop hiding and pretending you don't have these beliefs until someone speaks up. Stop accepting people you don't want to associate with in the first place.

Be honest with yourself and everyone. That way people, in the future, will know who they are associating with and supporting.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 1:00 pm EST

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Announcing ones sexual orientation is saying I'm married too...

Do any of you hide your husband or wife from the public?

So cate and elizabeth, a married couple should never tell anyone they are spouses?

Really? You announce you're a hetero everytime you announce your opposite sex spouse.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 12:56 pm EST

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AYK,

What about the gay people's CHILDREN? Should they be excluded because people like you don't feel as though their parents should have equal rights or opportunities under the law?

AYK, just so you know: Your version of God is not the ONLY version of God. Other people besides you believe in God, too, only their conception of what God means may be different from yours. Your God may hate homosexuals. Theirs might not. Your God may want to exclude certain children based on the sexual orientation of their parents. Other peoples' God may feel differently.

The Boy Scouts THEMSELVES define themselves as: "a non-sectarian association of persons who believe in God." That means that they are in defiance of their own bylaws, by their OWN DEFINITION, by discriminating against people who both believe in God, and are homosexual.

The only reason their practices have stood up in the courts so far, is that the courts have been loaded down with Bush appointees and moved so far to the religious right that getting a fair or un-bigoted decision is impossible. The conservative courts have moved in the opposite direction from expanding personal freedoms every time they get the opportunity. (Except for corporations. They are now people.)
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 12:33 pm EST

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The Boy Scouts Club is the antithesis of homosexual behaviors.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:55 am EST

Yes lord knows no gay person has ever tied a knot, rowed a boat or gone on a hike!
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 12:13 pm EST

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JA,

You know what they say- the lady doth protest too much...

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:54 am EST

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Flathead's comments should be entered into the dictionary as a really good example of homophobia. He says, "The last thing that I needed on my mind when I was serving my country and community was worrying about someone of the same sex, wanting to date me, have sex with me or wanting to see my private parts."

Geezum, scardy-cat much?

What makes guys like flathead think they are so irresistible to gay guys? I'm guessing that's a major figment of flat's imagination.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:36 am EST

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CSI, I chose the flathead name because I have a metal plate in my head. I don't remember how it got there. I actually have a round head. Maybe like yours. I chose flathead to disguise my identity. You should be getting use to ignorance because of the type of people you defend. Sorry, but true.
-- Posted by flathead on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:28 am EST

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AYK, actually the Boy Scouts have the need to bring religion into it. They have a policy prohibiting atheists and agnostics. Again, don't let facts, stop you from ranting.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:26 am EST

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AYK,

The Boy Scouts are rejecting these boys on the grounds that they are MORALLY UN-STRAIGHT. The BSA is the one who brought religion into it. What do you think this whole debate is about?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:26 am EST

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Boy Scouts is not a church, so theres no need to bring religion into it.

Boy Scouts has rules and code of conduct. Unfortunately Progressive Liberalism doesnt follow the same code of conduct.
How many heterosexuals whine about joining a gay club?
If gays have this equal thing, why are so many groups and organizations titled with Gay this that and the other thing? Why do they make it a point to have their OWN groups for whatever . . Equal huh? Seems as though theyve created plenty of their own groups clearly titled what they are.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:21 am EST

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Flathead is a perfect name for you...really. I generally do not resort to negative comments here, but I really can't stand this ignorance. Bennett, thanks for having a little common sense.
-- Posted by Can't Stand Ignorance on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:17 am EST

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As far as religion goes, there are different ones to pick according to beliefs
Baptist, Evangelical, Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, Buddah (dont know if they even have a church maybe a mountain top) and the Unitarians created a quasi -church for gays.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:13 am EST

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I am fortunate enough to have been raises and have been an athlete, christian, military veteran, boy scout, cub scout amongst other great things. The last thing that I needed on my mind when I was serving my country and community was worrying about someone of the same sex, wanting to date me, have sex with me or wanting to see my private parts.
The other concern that I have is how is sex education taught in schools today. I know how the normal practice works, but I am confused to the gay/lesbian way.
How is this approached in schools today, or is it?
-- Posted by flathead on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 11:03 am EST

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I fully support the current position of the Boy Scouts of America. If people know what they're about then they don't have to try to get in. It's that simple. And wanting to assist in scouting is not a "right" as some stated. If you don't like the standards set by the Scouts, stay away. I'm glad there are organizations that have clearly stated boundaries and limits. It doesn't happen enough these days.
-- Posted by Paul None on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 10:40 am EST

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"Somebody has to teach the kids the right way This couple brought it on themselfs if they would have kept thier mouths shut they would be fine but they are the ones that stepped up and said we are gays and we want you to be okay with it to make us feel better about being gays"

Mr. Right,

Do we or do we not have freedom of religion in this country? What if MY RELIGION says that being gay is okay? What if MY RELIGION says that there is NOTHING MORALLY UN-STRAIGHT about homosexuality? What is it about your religion that makes it better or more valid than mine? If you think that the Boy Scouts ought to be able to kick people out because of their religion, don't you think that they should call themselves the "CHRISTIAN BOY SCOUTS" and not claim to be inclusive of all religions as the Boy Scout's DO CLAIM?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 10:26 am EST

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C.S.I and Helsing: Why do you feel that way as these individuals are expressing their opinions. I do not see them calling you names and making disparaging remarks. This is a very divisive issue but we are all allowed our opinions and you resort to this rude name calling. I think you protest to much.
-- Posted by carl None on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 10:10 am EST

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There is no cogent, valid, sensible reason to deny gay/lesbian legal parents the right to assist in their son's scouting.

The only reason so many here have shown their true colors is base ignorance, hate, bigotry and nastiness. I ask any of you who have posted your snottiness here if you are true Christians? If so, you are hypocrites...and, God is watching.

Why not try what Jesus preached..."Love one another"? Otherwise, you're doing Satan's work...and, you are doing it all very well. How sad is that?
-- Posted by Erik van Helsing on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 10:02 am EST

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The ignorance in this stream of comments is overwhelming to my common sense.
-- Posted by Can't Stand Ignorance on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:45 am EST

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Why does any child need to know that some one is gay or straight...why does a child need to be bothered with someones orientation? It is nobody's business and people should not be broadcasting their sexual orientation...it is ridiculous...Cate and Elizabeth Wirth made an issue of this because they are self absorbed individuals with their own agenda who will never see the child's needs beyond their own. I think this is disgraceful...I'm sure they don't have to put up with the teasing...I won't be voting for Welch! I will remember in November...I hope the Boy scouts and the Military continues with their policies...Don't ask, don't tell...because it's nobody's business and sexual orientation does not need to be broadcasted.
-- Posted by How do I heart thee on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:41 am EST

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glad to see our U.S. representative is wasting tax dollars on this BS. How about he eliminate all gay establishments, get rid of the military and their policy etc etc etc.
Why is it that the people who represent this state love to put the screws to the tax paying citizens of this state by wasting time, effort and money on this dumb a.. crap? maybe they should go hang out at the unemployment line and ask those struggling to survive what they think of him not trying to find more jobs for them? i cant wait to retire from my job so i can leave this embarrasing state called Vermont.


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-- Posted by truth real on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:30 am EST

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What a complete waste of taxpayer money.
-- Posted by no name on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:09 am EST

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For pete's sake -- I don't announce I am a heterosexual when I volunteer for something so why should anyone announce or proclaim their sexual orientation. People want to be treated as equals yet they want preferential treatment. Which way is it?
-- Posted by Emile Lacasse on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 9:07 am EST

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The military's "don't ask, don't tell" serves a purpose. The purpose is to let anyone serve, but since their is a problem with knowing to be gay, this is the only way for it to work. The Boy Scouts clearly state " morally straight". If you are gay then you are not morally straight" . If you can't comply with the rules of the game then you can't play. I don't understand why these people are constantly making trouble. Welsh and his Gay simplthisers don't get it. The Boy Scout are not teaching anti Gay/Lesbian stuff like the Gay radicals are.
-- Posted by flathead on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 8:03 am EST

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"The Boy Scouts are teaching America's youth at impressionable ages that lesbians and gays are to be excluded because they are different, and not 'morally straight' as per the Boy Scouts' official stated position."
Somebody has to teach the kids the right way This couple brought it on themselfs if they would have kept thier mouths shut they would be fine but they are the ones that stepped up and said we are gays and we want you to be okay with it to make us feel better about being gays
-- Posted by Mr. Right on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 6:38 am EST

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Can't wait to see how this turns out.


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-- Posted by charles on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, 6:33 am EST

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