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Single payer whiners



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Published: January 16, 2010

On Tuesday Jan. 12, I went to the Statehouse to testify before lawmakers against single-payer health care in Vermont. I'm against it in general. I believe it impedes on our right to choose our own health care. While I was waiting for my turn to testify — I was 55th on the list — I heard some of the most disturbing testimony by those in favor of a single-payer system. Horror stories about hospitals and administration errors and insurance companies that refused approval for care. The thought that kept playing in my mind was: Will you quit whining. What a bunch of Harry Hardlucks and Sally Sobstories. They didn't address the real issue at all. How the heck are we supposed to pay for such a system? More taxes? We're already taxed to the hilt. Small business owners like me will be taxed out of business. Tax the rich, you say? Great, the rich are the ones who own businesses that employ people. Start taxing them and they won't be rich enough to keep their business and they'll stop employing people and you're right back to how to pay for it.

I have to wonder if the real reason people are so ready to give their freedoms to the government is just sheer laziness. Are you people so lazy that you would let the government make all your choices for you? If that's the case then fine. You can give your freedoms to the government, not mine! I will happily keep making decisions for myself. I will keep choosing my own health insurance and I will keep voting no for single payer in Vermont.

Hannah Vallerand

Berlin








READER COMMENTS


The best is going to be more expensive....you get what you pay for.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 10:54 am EST

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It is the best. The things that kill americans the most are generally self inflicted. Any sickness that is not caused by unhealthy living is BEST TREATED IN THE US.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 10:48 am EST

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"The U.S. Health Care System: Best in the World, or Just the Most Expensive?"

A detailed study from the University of Maine. http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 9:14 am EST

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Mellisa B Here is a Canadian Pharmacy where you can get ppt filled with little more than you would pay as a Co-pay down here in the US. These drugs are pharmaceuticals that are reputable for not much more $'s than a Co-Pay in the U.S. So if you do not have a drug you need, and cannot pay for it here in the U.S. go to this online Canadian-pharmacy. More than likely you can get the ppt filled on-line and sent to you in Vermont where the "TOTAL" Canadian price is not much more than a Co-PAY here in the U.S.((((((http://www.blueskydrugs.com/)))). You can a ppt from a Hospital pharmacist via Medicaid or Dr.Dinosaur program then go on line and buy your ppt drugs in this Online Canadian pharmcy .Get a 90 day supply .The drugs will arrive in Vt not more than 3-5 days later.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 8:27 am EST

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Hey Jeff good article: Here is a suggestion for your group to consider: Obama ia a Carnival barker with an Empty tent!
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jan 24, 2010, 8:12 am EST

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No more unfunded mandates from federal government. Each state needs to solve its own problems. No strings attached from DC
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 9:11 pm EST

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ML-
Perfectly stated.
Massachusetts has tried it, dont like it & the costs are unsustainable. They even tried to let illegals have it for awhile & had to boot them off, just cost too much.

Massachusetts even covered 98% and Obamacare wasnt even close to that. Single payer will not work

ALL Congress has to do is fix each problem with separate bills if they truly want to help people. I think they want govt control, and that is the reason for a huge bill taht can be altered by the libs at anytime, No other explanation for their behaviors and the liberal apathy.
Cant give those weasles an inch or they take a mile.....
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 6:59 pm EST

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/21/AR2010012103500.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35019673/ns/politics-washington_post/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34953876/ns/politics-health_care_reform/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/21/mass.independent.vote/index.html?iref=allsearch
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/obama-coakley-brown-agenda/2010/01/18/id/346720

;)

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 6:35 pm EST

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Here's a link to a article on this titled "Mass. Health Model, Not Obama's, Pleases Voters. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/22/us/AP-US-Massachusetts-Senate-Health-Care.html?_r=1

Here's a line from the article.

Republican Scott Brown tapped into those fears. He vowed to block President Barack Obama's health care overhaul even as he defended the 2006 state law, which he supports and which continues to have the backing of a majority of Massachusetts voters
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 2:28 pm EST

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No melissa, stay with me, he was one of 4 republicans in a deep blue state, he did what he had to do to survive in Mass because thats what the people of Mass wanted of him. Now, they have changed their mind, they got a taste of universal healthcare and they voted for him to go to Washington to STOP OBAMA's RADICAL AGENDA and to "KILL THE BILL". That is what he will/has already done. Notice how quickly the dems admitted defeat and moved to the next target, wall street and banks. Again playing on populism and the wealth envy saps, instead of any real leadership or policy. Are you shocked? You shouldn't be. Obama is just words, no actions or substance, a lot like a joke.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 2:27 pm EST

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I am no expert on the health care bill, I've seen a lot of it that I've read and don't like. I do know we do need to overhaul our system though, it is broken, costs are ridiculous, if canada can prescribe drugs that are the same as ours, but costs much less, why can't we? That's merely an example, this argument has been going on so long, I'm frankly, sick of it, we aren't making solutions in these discussions, it merely has become a pizzing contest.. that is getting no one anywhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the congress and senate needs to get their heads out of where the sun doesn't shine, and work together on something that really and truly will overhaul costs and make things affordable for all citizens.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 2:24 pm EST

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"Where does the government get its power to "require everyone to have some form of health insurance, or be fined"?

I didn't say I agreed with it ML, I was only stating the facts of the bill. Sorry to confuse you, that seems to happen a lot with you guys, you put in what you don't see for your own purpose of argument.

I disagree with this provision and I disagree with car insurance companies having the market cornered by forcing everyone to have to have insurance on their vehicles too! That drives costs. We HAVE TO PAY OR ELSE!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 2:20 pm EST

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Melissa,

Where does the government get its power to "require everyone to have some form of health insurance, or be fined"? I was reading through my pocket constitution and just can't find it in there... I could see maybe that could require people to "be healthy" but like most worhtless laws there would be no way to enforce it. But its 100% illegal for the government to make the people by anything ever.

If you people want this so bad, and the rest of America wants it so bad, it should not be hard at all to get a 3/5's majority to vote on an ammendment to the constitution which would give the government the power to do so. Oh wait a second though, they can't even pass it with a SUPER MAJORITY, so how will they get 3/5's to vote with them to do it legally? They wont. So the only othe way to do it is the ilegal way.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 2:13 pm EST

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LOL so he was strong armed? Are you saying that the republican party merely votes due to party choice alone, they make no decisions but for party name alone? Because Mitt Romney introduced the bill? So if Obama was a republican they would be completely for the bill?
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 2:06 pm EST

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RRRIIIIIIGHT, He did what he had to. And he will do what he has to now. It is over, dead, queen pelosi even said she does not have the votes, and it seems you only have 59 votes now in Reid world, interesting.

Just face it, you lost this one.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 1:36 pm EST

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"Even if Obamacare passes (which it wont thanks to mass)."

Don't count your chickens before they've hatched ML, so he's a republican, Scott Brown voted for universal health care in mass. He already has told you people he's not a rubber stamp for the Republicans. He also stated he wants to read the bill thoroughly before making any decisions on nay or stay!

"Mr. Brown, as a state senator, voted in favor of the Massachusetts universal health care law in 2006, when the state became the first in the nation to pass a far-reaching overhaul guaranteeing coverage for nearly every state resident and requiring everyone in Massachusetts to obtain insurance."


"You do not have to have health insurance to go to a hospital or a doctor."

AYK, I was talking about the provision in the bill that will require everyone to have some form of health insurance, or they will be fined, AFTER the bill is passed.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 1:29 pm EST

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I am saying that they have "universal healthcare" there, they hate it, and there votes show it. They do not want it in Mass, and they do not want it in the US. I think we are agreeing..?..?

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 1:14 pm EST

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What Mass has is not really single-payer. And did you ever think that they don't want what they have messed with?
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 12:17 pm EST

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"If single-payer works for the states that implement it great. If it doesn't you can be sure the people will have something to say about it."

Mike, they did in mass last week.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 11:56 am EST

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AYK,

"I havent heard of anyone in the US have desires to seek medical care in any other country,,,they all come here, so stop degrading America and itshealthcare its teh biggest and the best."

Actually there is a huge medical tourism industry that has sprung up just for the purpose of arranging vacations where Americans can go get inexpensive high quality health care abroad. If you Google medical tourism you will get 32,100,000 returns.

I'm going to tell you something that may surprise you though. I think you make a valid point e.g. our population vs. other countries.

Some things are best done on the federal level and some are not. Maybe health-care isn't one of them. The bill coming out of the Senate is a good example of that. I'm not an expert when it comes to federal redistribution of tax dollars back to the states for health-care but smarter minds than mine can work that out.

Let Vermont do what it wants. Let all the states do what they want. If single-payer works for the states that implement it great. If it doesn't you can be sure the people will have something to say about it. The states that do the best job will become a model for other states. In states that do a bad job for their people and businesses of those states they will leave. It will be a faster way to good affordable health-care for all.

I love this country and particularly Vermont. I just want to see it do a better job for it's people.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 11:31 am EST

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It's funny how in those supposedly socialist European countries they keep right on voting politicians in and out of office.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 7:33 am EST

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h2o whole,

How does "everyone contribute" when 40% of the country has a negative tax labially? That is, 40% of the country get more out of the government then they pay in.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 12:41 am EST

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Sooo no more about the car insurance huh? ok.......

CF,
I did not allow capitalism. However, show me any point in history were there were more free countries then there where capitalist nations. Show me when in history there were less human living in tyranny and persecution than at the peak of global capitalism. Give me one date, one example please. Until then, I will assume that capitalism has brought more freedom and liberty to the world than any other method. All the data and history shows that socialism and Communism fail. Just because some radical commie wrote a game plan about it does not mean that capitalism MUST lead to socialism. Only those incapable of original thought (the fuel of capitalism) think like you do.

Thats my take on it.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sat, Jan 23, 2010, 12:39 am EST

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"If healthcare was a right and every person was to reap teh rewards,,,,then EVERYONE has to contribute to it. And I mean everyone, rich and poor and yes even the good ole middle class."

AYK: LOL. that is what we have been saying all along. Everyone contributes. Everyone is covered no matter what economic status that they are.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 11:40 pm EST

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"So as you can see the comparison of countries, its insane to think we can afford healthcare for all when in fact all of teh socialized medicine countries are broke, and truly dying in teh streets"

ARK: Once again, this statement of yours is completely incorrect. Show me how in France, for instance, they are dying in the streets, or Britain, or Canada, or Germany, or Sweden. France has the world's best-rated health care system, with costs much lower than ours, and covering everyone. They live longer on average, have less infant mortality per capita, and pay about $3,000 per person where in Vermont we are currently paying over $7,000. The other socialistic countries are the same -- longer life expectancies, lower infant mortality, less costs per person, and of GDP, with every one of their citizens covered, and, even in spite of this great recession left to us by Bush, and have better economies than what is left of ours. Here, some 45,000 of our citizens die every year for lack of affordable medical care, some 60 of them in Vermont. And this is not to mention the national bankruptcies due to medical debts. In the socialistic countries, the number of bankruptcies for medical debts is zero. Is that bad?
-- Posted by Watercloset on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 11:37 pm EST

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cf reality
The socialism after capitalism you speak of is a nice contrite dictionary explanation.
What you are referring to is Karl Marx's theory in the communist manifesto that capitalism after revolution will inevitably become a dictatorship of the proletariat(socialism) as the interim govt. for the ultimate pure communism. look at history and see where this way of political thought has always led to the summary execution of any person or for that matter whole populaces that dared to oppose the rule of the communist .Mao 70 million dead . Stalin starved 8 to 10 million Ukrainians in 1yr because they dared to oppose moscows rule. Chey Revera murdered tens of thousands after taking control of Cuba as Castro's 2nd in command . Some people get this on a gut level. Some actually research and discover the truth. Read the actual words of these tyrants and how they came to power and perhaps you could understand why people fear socialism. Your ideology of socialism is the people collectively ruling them selves has never come to fruition. They become ruled by the socialist elite . In these systems the individual has little importance. So to follow your thought process if we fear communism then why would we allow socialism
-- Posted by steve forrest on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 10:57 pm EST

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Here in Vermont we have atleast 9 Clinics that provide services for uninsured Vermonters....Fees based on income..Check out their web-site
www.vccu.net
-- Posted by Angelo None on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 10:17 pm EST

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The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act
42 USC 1395 dd United States act of Congress

Look it up passed in 1986 under RONALD REAGAN

No one can be denied for lack of money etc
Go take a gander
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 9:33 pm EST

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Again...

Look up the definition of socialism ML....

After capitalism comes socialism.

If you fear socialism so much. Why did you allow capitalism?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 9:19 pm EST

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"You do not have to have health insurance to go to a hospital or a doctor. Simply not true. Hospitals have to take anyone anytime."

AYK,

That's incorrect. It depends on the type of hospital.

Some hospitals are "for profit". They can deny anyone they choose!
-- Posted by CF Reality on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 9:17 pm EST

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Mike-
A one size fits all is just not practical for many reasons,CHOICES, this is America .
Scott Browns had a message and he ran on his message and won. Obama campaigned as a nice guy, new to DC, fresh perspective...when in fact he was part of the gang of thugs from Chicago...Obama hoodwinked teh voters that did not read his voting history and read about him, but just listened to a charmer on TV or in ADs...............
Kids in their 20's and healthy people may only want an accident policy. They are more than happy to pay $100 for a physical.... Or there may be someone who was born with problems and has a doctor appt every week, well they need something more for their entire life, adn they can have a policy to meet those needs. Then there are moral and ethical beliefs, 1st ammendment freedom to express religion...well there are millions that refuse to fund abortions and HIV or gay diseases brought on by bad behavior. The totally poor right now are covered by medicaid and our grandparents have medicare(BY THE WAY The elders have already paid into medicare all their lives, straight out of their paychecks for 30yrs).

There are 350million Americans
France has 62 million
Canada has 33 million
Cuba has 11 million
Sweden has 9 million
Venezuela has 27 million

So as you can see the comparison of countries, its insane to think we can afford healthcare for all when in fact all of teh socialized medicine countries are broke, and truly dying in teh streets

America has a few flaws,,,but its the BEST in the world

I havent heard of anyone in the US have desires to seek medical care in any other country,,,they all come here, so stop degrading America and itshealthcare its teh biggest and the best.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 9:17 pm EST

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AYK,

Would a system like the following be acceptable to you. Everyone pays the same percentage of their income. Emplyees pay 8 percent which is equivalent to what most Americans currently pay, but the care is far better and everyone is covered with very little wait for surgery or diagnostic tests. Employers pay around 8 percent also instead of the 18 percent they pay here so the burden is far less for them than it is here. There are different options for the self-employed. Very little tax money goes into the system. Most of it comes from insurance premiums.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406

I'm not saying we should follow ther system exactly but it is one that we could study among others. We have plenty of bright minds in this country. I can't see any reason that we can't take the best parts of what other countries have done and put together a system that is fair and works for all Americans. I would be more than happy to contribute my fair share to that. We are all in this together and we should be working together to see that all are treated with dignity, equality and respect. I believe that if we all put our heads together we can create one of the best health care systems in the world.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 8:15 pm EST

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Mike-
This is another non profit website, from Chicago Illinois, gee what a surprise...another group of lobbyists for a special interest
Not a credible group---Note the links to Labor activists good hint of who they are

There was a time when Walmart tried to move in Berlin...and this "Central Vt Physicians against Walmart" so-called group popped up.
A common sense person might think, wow, a group of doctors against Walmart.....well when the truth was told TRUTH ALWAYS PREVAILS

There was no big group, it was nothing more than a hippie doctor at CVH that didnt like Walmart, so instead of saying something by himself he was deceitful and created this false sense of a group to give the appearance of many unhappy. AS I said before Mike...really you need to check the facts
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 7:57 pm EST

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If healthcare was a right and every person was to reap teh rewards,,,,then EVERYONE has to contribute to it. And I mean everyone, rich and poor and yes even the good ole middle class.
It cant be fair and funded and if u libs want equality--then pay equal amounts...then I'll think about it.

That is why I dont really mind the gas tax...everyone pays the same whether u drive a VW or a Lexus--now thats fair and equal
Same as sales tax......whether u get your welfare money or money from capital gains...now a flat income tax rate would be appropriate too...you libs fair and equal this is the fair and equal way
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 7:42 pm EST

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It seems like an awful lot of doctors think single-payer is the way to go. They have a website with lots of good information about single-payer.

http://www.pnhp.org/

Be sure to check out their Frequently Asked Questions page.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 7:26 pm EST

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PLUS, anyone who has car insurance has previously gone through a "certification process" in which they are educated and gain experience in driving, and once they meet a "minimum standard" they sing in a legal agreement with the state to abide by the rule of law and drive safely.

In order to make a comparison to healthcare, you would only be able to go to a state hospital if you had your "card". The card would be like a license that is a privilege and not a right. One that must be earned and one that can be taken away. Everyone with a card would have to pass a class on "healthy living" and then have a certain amount of "supervised" and logged times living healthily. Once you were approved for the "card" you would be certified in healthy living by the state, you would then sign an agreement stating you would continue to live healthily as required by the card (like with a drivers license) or risk being fined or having you card "revoked". You would also have to be on a "trial period" initially for a set amount of time, with more stringent health rules as new card holders would not have developed "good habits" yet. Of course they would also be charged a greater rate in the beginning because they "have no history" and are "inexperienced" at being healthy.

If you didn't have a card, you could still go to various other institutions for healthcare as long as you did not use government hospitals with out having a card. As that would be like driving without insurance or a license, which you can do, just not on a government road. Only then can the comparison be made. Otherwise, it is simply an attempt by the big government crowed to justify government expansion and control by citing examples of previously expanded government controls. Even still, they want to bring up car insurance, fine, look at the government institution know as the DMV! Point and case.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 6:45 pm EST

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Dont give them any ideas AYK, next it will be a right to have pets and we will need universal petcare.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 4:54 pm EST

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But you do not have to drive, and infants are not required to have car insurance, nor are passangers, non-drivers, and so on. There is no product that the govt make any one buy nor is there any legal way for them to do so. Even if Obamacare passes (which it wont thanks to mass) the constitutionality of it would instantly be challanged. So regardless of Car insurance, this is still illegal and moronic. If you want everything that europe has, why not just move there and let us capitalist meet our doom on our own? Oh yea, because this about government control and spreading socialism.

Like AYK points out, just look what Obama is doing with the banks. We had to save them because they were all broke and not making any profit. So we bail them out and end up making them profitable while the govt makes money off the forced loans. Now, Obama says we must have a "war on wall street" and the banks who are making profit again must be taxed to the ground. WTF? If we didn't want them to make their profits why did we bail them out? Oh yea, so the GOVERNMENT can keep THEIR profits, duh, which sounds like a step towards socialism to me and a very liberal act. But according to Benny boop and the likes he is not liberal enough.... Go figure. And you people want people like Bush, Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Cheney, and the likes to run our healthcare? HAHAHAHAHA! Have at it, I will be the one getting my "caddelac plan" taxed at 40% while you people wait in line for 6 months for a broken arm.

ON the fly, no time for proof reading, sorry.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 4:50 pm EST

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You do not have to have health insurance to go to a hospital or a doctor. Simply not true. Hospitals have to take anyone anytime. Doctors happily take checks and cash.
You are confused with dentists-they absolutely refuse to do anything without payment, same as opticians. And dont forget Veterinarians.

I have spent more for my dog to get an annual check up than it did for my annual physical( deductables to make)
Which I dont mind either, but it is pretty sad when a veterinarian charges more than my doctor.
People complain too much
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 4:10 pm EST

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The comparison:

If you want to drive your vehicle on public roads, you HAVE TO HAVE CAR INSURANCE.

If you want to go to a hospital or a doctor, you HAVE TO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

If you don't have car insurance and get pulled over you will be fined and can lose your license to drive.

If you do to a hospital and doctor, and don't have health insurance. You will be fined.

Why is that not a comparison? That's exactly what the fine is they are talking about with health insurance, that after this bill is passed, we will HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING, we are being forced to have car insurance, and we will be forced to have to have some kind of health insurance.

Try driving around with out car insurance, get pulled over, see what happens.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 3:21 pm EST

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Comparing car insurance to health insurance mandates was a battlecry from many democrats in Congress...that was how they held up their debate
Thats was their comparison for their argument
They failed to miss the point, that no citizen in this country HAS to buy anything . But they are also only forcing those to pay based on taxable income. Why not make people pay based on ALL income, like Vt Tax Dept does..., taxable earnings and non taxable...Income is income.. or at least to the tax dept. If its going to be aprogram that benefits everyone, then everyone needs to pay.
Incentives shape peoples behaviors. If someone has to kick in or make a co pay, they will think twice before using ER as a doctor's office or burdening the system with snotty noses and boo boo's.
Its a fact if something is totally free, people wont think twice before taking and using it.Money talks always has always will. At the bare minimum $25/visit co pay is reasonable for the poor...medicaid needs co pays, something, it cant be totally free anymore.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 3:03 pm EST

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@AYK
You wrote:
"Its actually much simpler.
The Govt doesnt force anyone to buy car insurance."

The federal government does not, but I was specifically talking about state governments. So for most people, insurance is required if they wish to drive. In a state like Vermont, it is almost required because we are so rural. I did not use the word "force".


"When a person does buy car insurance-rates are based on how healthy the car is-car is replaced on book value- rusty or new-cars are not all the same and each has its own value
and premiums are based on driver's behavior- good driver safe behaviors-cheap
reckless behavior and accidents-costs more"

I know how auto insurance works, but I really don't see how this is relevant to health insurance.

I'm sorry that all you got out of my post was an idea that I don't understand how auto insurance works. I didn't feel the need to explain auto insurance in depth because I trusted you would know how it works already, since you live in Vermont and probably have it. If you have something to say on my post related at all to healthcare, then please speak up. Otherwise, I'm not interested in hearing it.
-- Posted by Harvey Sri-Nevasen on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 2:23 pm EST

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perkins-
you ought to see Obammy on his job tour in Ohio on TV now. Before Tuesday weve been screaming for jobs jobs. White House didnt care, they were determined to undermine our healthcare and endanger us all.... Scott Brown and teh whole liberal agenda comes to a halt,,,,and NOW all of a sudden its jobs and big bad banks....oh except Fannie Mae & Freddie the worst debacle of them all.
The same big bad banks that were the top 10 contributors to his campaign, he wasnt asking for our money back 6 months ago. And we want our money back from AIG and GM too,,,,,why not wheres that gone?

Obama thinks he's so sllck. Manufacturing...he's putting down the steel mills and conning theminto 'green jobs' , yup $500 electric car batteries for cars that no one can afford.
Barry is a joke...he just doesnt get it
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 2:20 pm EST

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Most misspelled word in discussions.

Loose often used instead of Lose

Lose - to come to be with out

Loose - not rigidly fastened or securely attached

I see this so often, I'm usually not a spell cop, but come on people.

It's lose not loose.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 1:47 pm EST

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Benny boop, I only spew my opinion like everyone else here. Your side can not even give an honest number as to how many are uninsured let alone any comprehensible or logical approach to doing so. The solution to lefties is always, "have the government throw a bunch of money at it" and the problem persist. You want to talk numbers? Look at all the money the left has spent on the "war on poverty", then look at the poverty figures for the last 100 years and see the most people started loosing ground. What about all the things the left has done "to help minorities" like affirmative action and welfare. Do you see thousands of articulate, well educated, and prosperous people coming out of minority or poor areas? Look at social security and their well intentions to "help people save for retirement" while all they do is tax and spend immediately, IOU's do not pay for heat or buy groceries for people who followed the rules and paid into the system for their entire lives.

So benny, It is you who needs to stop with the B.S.. Not a darn thing you libs have done have helped anyone but the liberal elite's and It doesn't take a political science major to look at the data and see it is the democrats who lie and manipulate about their record more than anyone.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 1:24 pm EST

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I'm not posting this link to persuade people or argue a point in anyway. I just happened to run across it and found it interesting and thought provoking. From looking at the site the people who run it are no fans of Democrats anymore than they are of Republicans.

I thought others might find it interesting too, although some who post here are probably already aware of it. http://www.singlepayeraction.org/blog/?p=2022
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 12:12 pm EST

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"...its the people that elect them, thus the American people, who are to conservative for single payer. It is not how we do things in this country and there are many good reasons as to why."

Yes ML,

You're right. The main reason is that a lot of the American people are a lot like you and AYK- oblivious dupes. Slaves to the insurance industry's never-ending spew of disinformation. Incapable of doing the simple math that demonstrates Single Payer's fiscal superiority. Thanks for your help in keeping the system broken.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 11:48 am EST

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"Progressive liberals can not be fiscally conservative......They are CHEAPSKATES,,,keep their money & recklessly spend everyone elses money"

I know I shouldn't acknowledge AYK, but this is one of the dumbest things she has ever said. So now all of the "libs" have somehow been able to keep their money while spending only conservatives' money? Wow. Instead of insulting them, we should be rewarding their ingenuity.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 11:26 am EST

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"You people are pathetic and moronic. Get off your asses and DO SOMETHING to better your life instead of whining and trying to get other peoples money."

Jeff, we are doing that. We are working for a single-payer health system so that your idiot system does not keep stealing our money and giving us little or nothing in return.



"Watercloset: I would have never guess you were a liberal? I thought you were a weekend release from Waterburey-Nut-Nut-Nut! I will admit, you might have a good throwing arm but do't be a bloviator. You givbe off to much hot air to accomplish that feat."

It's funny, none, but I saw you in one of those rooms at Waterbury as well:) You been there a while too. You on weekend release too:)? Send ya back on Monday. My air might be hot; yours is vapid:)

"Single payer is not insurance- nothing more than a huge account, which more money will be going out than coming in."

Well, ARK, you are right that it is an account. It is an insurance account that does not price millions out of the insurance market. It is a public insurance account for the public to use. The medicare or medicaid you're on is an insurance account.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 11:21 am EST

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Progressive liberals can not be fiscally conservative......They are CHEAPSKATES,,,keep their money & recklessly spend everyone elses money

Progressive liberals want a free-fall healthcare system with no strings, no spending limits and pay for every snot sniffle and scratch without any restrictions.

Impossible to manage a monster like that when everyone isnt paying . If every man woman and child(parents) had a horse in the race, flat rate for everyone, perhaps I'd consider.
But
Single payer is not insurance- nothing more than a huge account, which more money will be going out than coming in
Maybe- The govt should get advice from accountants and insurance companies and business minded people too see how they run something WITHOUT a deficit.
Even the IRS frowns on any business that doesnt turn a profit once in a while
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 11:07 am EST

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Benny, its not the dems, its the people that elect them, thus the American people, who are to conservative for single payer. It is not how we do things in this country and there are many good reasons as to why. Just wanted to point out that power to make laws comes fom the people voting and not from politicians. Watch the friedman video on single payer, read "rules for radicals" (again, my guess)and ask yourself if you are really this gullible.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 10:38 am EST

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ML,

I agree that these plans are completely flawed. but the reason they're no good is because the dems AREN'T liberal. AYK's crazed rantings are just that- rantings. What is needed is a Single Payer Plan, very simply. If the dems in the federal government are too conservative to give us one, then we've got to start here. Its the only economically viable way to keep healthcare costs under control.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 9:04 am EST

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You people need help. Its not wonder your so miserable when you always choose to be the victim of society. You people are pathetic and moronic. Get off your asses and DO SOMETHING to better your life instead of whining and trying to get other peoples money.

Benny, you know and I know, that the current bills are nothing that the dems want and nothing that the republicans want. So why even bother defending bills that do not adress costs, do not insure everyone, do not increase access, and cost the country billions? Are you a blind supoprter of Obama? Whats your reasoning, we all want reform, nobody wants what they have come up with, so why defend it?

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 8:56 am EST

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I shouldn't have said "SOLE." I should have said "PRIMARY." Sorry.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 8:16 am EST

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AYK,

Just like a lot of what you're professing to be true, what you're saying about insurance rates being based on the worth of the car is true in theory, but not in practice. If what you were saying were true, insurance rates for your car would come down the longer you owned it. They don't. This is because the insurance companies will rip you off every chance they get. That is their job. To try to s c r e w as many of us over as often as they can. That is why they regularly deny coverage for as many medical procedures as they can. This is why if they can find ANY WAY to deny coverage for ANYTHING, they will. Why would you want a system that exists to benefit a company who's SOLE purpose is to take as much of your money as they can without giving you anything for it?

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 8:12 am EST

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AYK-I didn't make that comment I enjoy your thought provoking rhetoric . Keep at it! Pour salt in their wounds and waatch the buggers run,run,run! You can run from AYK but you cannot hide !

-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 5:29 pm EST

Watercloset: I would have never guess you were a liberal? I thought you were a weekend release from Waterburey-Nut-Nut-Nut! I will admit, you might have a good throwing arm but do't be a bloviator. You givbe off to much hot air to accomplish that feat.
-- Posted by None None on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 8:10 am EST

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Harvey or RGC-
Its actually much simpler.
The Govt doesnt force anyone to buy car insurance.

When a person does buy car insurance-rates are based on how healthy the car is-car is replaced on book value- rusty or new-cars are not all the same and each has its own value
and premiums are based on driver's behavior- good driver safe behaviors-cheap
reckless behavior and accidents-costs more
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 7:47 am EST

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@AYK
Here's a few reasons why the comparison of auto insurance and health insurance is not a good one and also how our current system is broken.

A person's automobile is a privilege. A person's life is a right.

All but two states (New Hampshire and Wisconsin) require that insurance be bought to show financial liability in case you are to blame for an auto accident. To my knowledge only Massachusetts requires all residents to have health insurance to pay if they are injured.

Automobiles are required to be inspected once every year in many states. I cannot name a single state which requires people to go in for a check-up on a regular basis to make sure they are healthy.

When your car gets totaled and it is your fault and you have no collision insurance (at least in Vermont, laws vary by state), it is up to you to pay for the damages and to buy yourself a new car. When you go to the hospital to be treated for the life-threatening injuries which resulted from this accident, and you have no health insurance, the hospital still treats you and other patients foots the bill through taxes to pay for medicare and increased insurance premiums.

Buying a car with a preexisting condition is something that people have s choice in, they can choose what car to get based on how expensive they think the insurance for that particular car might be. A preexisting condition is usually not a choice.

The point I am trying to make is that we should not model our health care industry after our auto care industry, but there are a few things that we can take and lessons we can learn which would be improvements.

For example I think a regular check-up with a nurse or doctor as well as with a dentist would be a good thing and it would help drive health care costs down by diagnosing problems earlier and avoiding costly treatments.

Everyone should be contributing to the overall health of the nation. In the same way that people contribute to social security so that when they get old they will still have some income (social security could use some work too, but that isn't the prominent issue here), people should be contributing to the health of the nation so that they know that if they get hurt, they will be cared for and will not have to worry about it financially.

Preexisting conditions should not be a basis for denying coverage. This will inflate premiums as we have seen in Vermont, so it should be part of a larger cost-cutting overhaul to offset this increase and take the burden off of families.

Our system should not be based on another country's, such as Canada's, but rather America should look at what works and what doesn't and create a system which has the best chance of working.

More doctors will be needed. I believe that part of an overhaul would have to include federal funding for incentives to encourage smart people to become practicing doctors. An example off the top of my head would be for med school loans to be paid off by the government in stages after 5-10 years of work.

Doctors should be paid in salary rather than per procedure or per patient. Health care should be all about quality, not quantity.

As much as possible should be made electronic to cut down on and ease the doing of paperwork as well as the ease of sharing patient information amongst health facilities.

Health decisions should be made between a patient and a doctor. Neither the government nor insurance companies should play a role in deciding what procedure would be best. The changing of doctorly pay from per procedure to salary based would eliminate the incentive for doctors to order superfluous tests and procedures. People would be able to seek second opinions if they so chose.

All Americans would have the same basic coverage regardless of economic status.

Abortions would not be paid for by taxpayer money with exceptions for rape and incest.

Nobody but the hardworking people making the healthcare possible should profit financially from it. No insurance companies. Hospitals and other health care facilities and the government would work together to distribute money.

The price gouging of the American people by pharmaceutical companies must come to an end. Consumers are being ripped off as evidenced by the difference in prices between here and Canada as well as nearly every other country in the world. The government needs to step in and protect the consumers. The same goes for college textbooks, did you know that the exact same textbook, with the words "International Edition" on the front and maybe made from slightly different materials, can sell for less than half of the "American Version"?



To summarize, our system is rotten to the core, on life support, and uninsured. The American people are footing the bill for this, as evidenced by our highest GDP spending on health care with little to show for all the money we're throwing at it. It needs to be fixed. Neither the Senate nor the House's bills do much of anything. They attempt to begin to fix the problems, but the Senate's is wrought with deals that tarnish its integrity and the House's will never pass the Senate, and it would not have passed there even before Scott Brown won in Massachusetts. As a nation, we need to sit down, consider healthcare as a whole, and make some massive changes. America is the best country in many ways, and there's no reason why we can't have the best healthcare system as well.



Sorry for how long this was...
-- Posted by Harvey Sri-Nevasen on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 6:27 am EST

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Mike,

There are definitely some good Republicans out there.

I consider myself moderately conservative. But people like AYK drive me nuts the most. They are the reason I could never consider myself a Republican. I would never want to be on "their team".

I don't consider every Liberal a "Democrat". I think most liberals vote democratically because it is closer to their ideals.

Why does AYK think all Democrats are Humanitarians and Liberal?



We are all a bit liberal. Even AYK is. She accepts Scott Brown even though he is Pro-Choice!

AYK would hate to admit it. But that is "liberal". Her strong Republican roots are slowly decaying!

(Or their party is falling apart and they are willing to downgrade their beliefs. Religion and Churches do it. When times are tough and numbers are dwindling. They will be more liberal toward their views in hopes of reattracting people. Why would Republicans be any different? )
-- Posted by CF Reality on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 5:51 am EST

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Since when is constructive critizism, name calling?

AYK, I just explained where your errors lie. I know the truth can be hard to swallow.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 5:01 am EST

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"45,000 people die a year for lack of insurance? What website did you find those statistics."

AYK, you can find it anywhere on the web. It was a study that came out this year from the harvard medical school and first published by the New York Times. The number is probably higher if you count the underinsured.

"If the liberals really care about people. They dont need to try to pass a huge 'Bill"...deal with each issue one bill at a time."

If the conservatives really cared about people over profits they would get out of the way of these bills.

"have never heard of any Doctor or Hospital refusing to TREAT anyone, if they have no insurance .I have even heard that the Doctor or Hospital will write off the bill if the patient cannot pay."

Angelo None, just saw this. Been busy. Hospitals will treat you -- as the law says they must -- but that is all that they have to do. They will only do the barest minimum of tests, for instance, and often throw you out before the anasthesia wears off as happened to a friend of mine without in for a smashed leg. He was told he had to go before the dope had even worn off. Some hospitals, especially in the cities, will just pay for a cab and dump you someplace.

When a hospital writes off a bill this means that they are usually charging someone else's insurance policy for that bill. Though you might not pay the bill, or just a small portion of it, someone else's insurance policy is being grilled for that bill. And it is a preciously small bill by our system's terms. Try having them write off the $50,000 for your heart operation if you have no insurance or are underinsured. You might find a different story.

"The rich can damn well afford to be taxed MUCH more than they are now, and still remain quite rich. The rich benefit the most from government, as they have more property to protect, and would not be rich for long without the state to protect them from the poor. Thus they should be taxed the most."

Right on. It is because of the poor that the rich have so much money to buy the protection and the tax cuts from the state.

"AYK is off her meds again. Maybe her medicare ran out?"

LOL, CF, I wonder if ARK is mad because medicare ran out on her:)

"Keep at it! Pour salt in their wounds and waatch the buggers run,run,run! You can run from AYK but you cannot hide !"

None, None, this proud liberal ain't never going to run or hide from any conservative, including you, and if you pour salt in the wounds, this liberal will pour it and then some right back onto you.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:25 pm EST

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45,000 people die a year for lack of insurance? What website did you find those statistics.

If the liberals really care about people. They dont need to try to pass a huge 'Bill"...deal with each issue one bill at a time.

The liberals have let it slip, they need a 'BILL" , just pass it. They said they will change it later
EXACTLY!
Mo stopping them then, add this that and the other thing.

Bill#1 No insurance company shall deny any US citizen coverage for any pre existing condition.

Bill#2- To ensure choice for Americans, all 1,500 insurance companies may advertise and set up offices in any state they choose and enroll any person willing to pay the premiums. Consumers may choose accident only, or major medical or dental only or whatever package they want to purchase. Just like Progressive car insurance
................1,500 choices,,,,wow, sure would beat the lack of choice now.

Bill#3-Tort Reform- No person shall be awarded more than $XXXXX for any lawsuit brought for medical malpractice. Peoplemake mistakes, sorry, but heres enough money equivalent to loss of current paychecks until retirement.
(kind of like workmans comp...settlements are rate of pay until retirement)
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 9:05 pm EST

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Peter,

Slow down there a second, I do not even know where to begin. I guess from the beginning.

You say, "The rich can damn well afford to be taxed MUCH more than they are now, and still remain quite rich. The rich benefit the most from government.... Thus they should be taxed the most."

I say: Who the H*ll are you to decide who can afford to be taxed what? "The rich benefit most from government"!?!?! Are you really this ignorant? Soooo, welfare, subsidized housing, food stamps, medicare, medicaid, SS, the IRS, the income tax, the capital gains tax, the estate tax, the luxury tax, the inheritance tax, and on and on "benefit the rich"? What about the millions on the government payroll wether it be employees or welfare recipients whose entire lively hood depends on the government, they do not benefit?

Next you through out that "10% of gdp is investments" line which is blatantly not true. Millions of Americans invest billions of dollars every year from IRA's to day traders. Also,millions of Americans are employed by companies who are traded in the various stock exchanges. These companies get their initial footing from and continuing expansion from investments. They then grow into companies who can potentially employ thousands of Americans. The people take dividends and paychecks to the bank and then "consume" various products. So, just because an average joe is spending the money, does not mean that the money did not originate as an investment of some form.

Lastly, you repeatedly use the word "fortunate" in referring to the rich and people who currently have health insurance. I am not sure why so I thought first I would refresh you with the definition.

Fortunate: "having good fortune; receiving good from uncertain or unexpected sources; lucky"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fortunate

Did you catch the, "lucky" or the "uncertain" or the "unexpected" sources? You imply that wealthy people obtain their wealth from simply being lucky, "the luck of the draw" if you will. That is so unfounded and moronic it is disturbing. NEWS FLASH: People get wealthy from working hard and ensuring they develop a well marketable skill early on in life. It is not radome of unpredictable, everyone is capable of reaching their full economic potential, many do not. Wealthy people work long hours, sacrifice a lot in their personal lives, and they make decisions that often involve millions of dollars, and thousands of employees jobs. They deserve what they are paid, or else the market would not afford to pay them as such. They are not "Lucky" or "fortunate", they are passionate, disciplined, determined, driven, self-motivated, achievers by choice. Anyone can give up just as easily as anyone can try, its the following through part that gets most who try, so they give up.

Now, here we have Peter who has clearly given up and expects to be financially supported by the achievers because HE says THEY can afford to pay more. After all, they are fortunate to be wealthy, Peter could have just as well been the lucky rich guy but he wasn't, so why shouldn't Peter be entitled to the wealth, its not like they "own" the money, worked hard for it or anything..... What a joke.

Peter pal, you need to sit in a quite room and think long and hard about what the roll of government should be in your life. If you want them to baby you like an infant telling you "everything will be okay" when it won't and telling you "you can't fail" when you have and robbing you neighbors to pay for you poor decisions in life then fine. Or you could rather listen to liberty and freedom and say, "damn-it, I failed, but I sure as heck am not giving up, and I definitely will never stoop to the level of begging for money from other people so long as there is a buck to be made and a consumer to serve". I choose to never give up and always try again, if you never fail first in life you will never know how good it feels to succeed when you do. And if you try once and fail but never try again then you never should have bothered trying in the first place.

Thats my take on it anyway, one thing you are entitled to is your thoughts and beliefs. After all, I am not a bigot like Benny boop. (hahaha)

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 8:47 pm EST

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Todays News!
Hmmm...Air America the progressive liberal talk radio is done..gone bankrupt, cant imagine why no one wants to advertise on their talk radio........
No more Rachel Madcow Show on teh radio ,,awwww
-----------------------------------------------------------
PELOSI: Votes Aren't There for Senate Healthcare Bill
--------------------------
Nancy Pelos (D-Calif.) said Thursday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/21/pelosi-votes-arent-there_n_431430.html
"I don't think it's possible to pass the Senate bill in the House," Pelosi told reporters at her weekly press conference. "I don't see the votes for it at this time."
---------------------
Oh yea, UNEMPLOYMENT ROSE SOME MORE Now to ********482,000, it didnt go down, there are no new jobs, it rose 40,000 more than Dec.

Dont forget these numbers dont show those who are off unemployment, or currently collecting welfare, or collecting social security disability, or those that just gave up looking.
What do you think the real number of people THAT ARE NOT GAINFULLY EMPLOYED are?
I think close to 25 maybe 30 percent by now

Not to mention teh NAACP advises Obama has done NOTHING for the african-american people, their unemployemnt according to NAACP is 45%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So tell me, WHERES THE BILLIONS??
In liberal pockets, not the poor or middle class
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 8:21 pm EST

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AYK,

That's okay you don't need to pray for me. God and I are okay.

Maybe you could pray for the 45,000 who die each year due to lack of health coverage.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 8:17 pm EST

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Wikipedia is not a reliable "source" used by educators or colleges...sorry.

Factcheck and snopes are just web sites that give answers to "their" sources. Again Mike, if u need an answer from Treasury, u get it off their site. You dont ask factcheck a question about the treasury. Go to the original source.

per Mike "I know the budget is scary but the numbers were probably headed higher anyway because of the mess Obama was left with."

Now Mike, the numbers can only go higher when teh President of teh US signed bills taht make them go higher.

All I can say, is Thank GOD for Sen Brown!!!!
These numbskulls just dont get it, I'll keep praying for you
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 8:00 pm EST

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Good grief- I was trying make it easy, and take you to direct link. i shouldve known, leave it to the libs to make it complicated and beaurocratic.
Fine:
Go to http://www.ustreas.gov/
then on the treasury page click on 'online services' a treasury link
then pick Bureau of Public Debt & Savings Bonds ( ps genius' this a web page put together and used by treasury)
guess where it takes you , gee willikers, right where i gave u to begin with
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/
then u can go to
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 7:51 pm EST

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I am sorry AYK, but you just make it too easy to ridicule you.
If you represent the typical conservative (or whatever it is you call yourself), I don't think that those pesky libs will have any problems remaining the majority in VT's legislature.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 7:13 pm EST

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The rich can damn well afford to be taxed MUCH more than they are now, and still remain quite rich. The rich benefit the most from government, as they have more property to protect, and would not be rich for long without the state to protect them from the poor. Thus they should be taxed the most.

The marginal value of each additional dollar is relative. Each additional dollar is less and less important the richer one is, and extremely important for the poorest. Thus, it is more just to tax the rich more heavily than the rest.

Yes, the rich are more likely to invest, but investment is a mere 10% of the GDP. About 70% of our GDP is consumer spending, of which the lion's share is done by the non-rich (the remaining 20% is government spending). So it also makes economic sense to tax the rich more than the rest.

As for single payer, it is probably the least worst choice. It is the ONLY viable solution to our healthcare woes, unlike other half-baked ideas. And it works fine for Canada and numerous other countries; why can't it work here? Healthcare is a human right, and it is time to uphold it for all.

Hannah, you may not like single payer since you are fortunate enough to have insurance of your own, and presumably the money to pay for it, but what about all the millions of people that are not so fortunate? Did you know that a whopping 40 million Americans, 10 million of them children, lack health insurance? There are plenty of people who can't afford the ridiculously high premiums and do not get insurance through their employers. Are they "whiners" too?

For the record, what Congress is trying to do is NOT single payer, make no mistake. Complete with mandates, it is a giveaway to the insurance industry, quite possibly the most nefarious industry this side of R.J. Reynolds. And THAT I am definitely against!
-- Posted by Peter Lorenzo on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 7:11 pm EST

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AYK,

The first site you listed seems to be a place to sell treasury bills. Here's the real U.S Department of the Treasury site. http://www.ustreas.gov/

The second site is obviously a right wing site.

I know the budget is scary but the numbers were probably headed higher anyway because of the mess Obama was left with. Being personally fiscally conservative I hate to spend money I don't have. But I had an accident once that forced me to put a lot of debt on my credit card and then pay back the minimum until was able to go back to work. My checking account got down to 67.00. It was a scary time. Once I got things under control I payed off my debt as quickly as I could. The alternative would have been being homeless. I believe Obama is responsible and will work to pay down the debt as soon as things get better. Taxpayers have already received over $16 billion from all the TARP repayments and it's projected to go higher. http://wallstreetpit.com/13153-tarp-repayments-reach-164-billion

Here's two sources on the Clinton budget. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/during_the_clinton_administration_was_the_federal.html

P.S. I don't expect to be posting as much after this. I have my own business and work from home. As much as I might like to get paid for this it's not a practical reality
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 6:40 pm EST

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Since we are talking about Alinsky, I bookmarked this video of Milton Friedman defending capitalism with knockout responses. It isn't really about Alinsky though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjH4QBSwWlg

Another good one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjH4QBSwWlg

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 6:21 pm EST

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I know, theres a common sense minded NN and then theres a progressive lib NN. that resorts to name calling, says I am the worst person in the state huh, wow........Its okay, I am hip to their marching orders .... NN
It are just practicing it's Saul ALinsky tactics...call names, isolate , and ridicule......obvious =)
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 5:53 pm EST

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Mike-
Heres some more facts, from the Treasury

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/reports.htm
When Clinton left office, Clinton left a debt of $5.73 trillion for Bush
When Bush took office, debt was $5.73 trillion
When Bush left office, debt was $10.7 trillion---8yrs later total spent $4.97 all of 8yrs

Now for teh scary part...Obama has gone from $10.7 trillion--->$12, 327,380 trillion in ONE YEAR
Obama has spent over $2 trillion in one year
Bush spent $4.97 trillion over EIGHT years http://www.federalbudget.com/

Mike- youmay want to re-check your sources, someone is giving you inaccurate information...also C-SPAN is a great place to watch and hear all teh lawmakers words, straight out of the horses mouth. Undeniable. You'd be amazed what they say on C-SPAN,,,then watch teh news or read papers and see what they print, not even close
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 5:43 pm EST

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AYK-I didn't make that comment I enjoy your thought provoking rhetoric . Keep at it! Pour salt in their wounds and waatch the buggers run,run,run! You can run from AYK but you cannot hide !
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 5:29 pm EST

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When I get my answers first from Mike, then I will respond to his questions happily
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 5:27 pm EST

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AYK,

You are a hypocritical oaf. You blasting someone for answering your question with a question after he asked you question re: Reagan and Bsuh to which you responded:

Mike-
in your opinion- What exactly has Obama done for all the citizens of the USA from January 20,2009 until today

And personally, how have you benefited?

Looks a lot like answering a question with a question.

And by the way your question explains everything. PERSONALLY how have YOU benefited. Its all about the individual. The true lasting legacy of Ronald Reagan. Individualism over community, individualism over all
-- Posted by Matthew Lyons on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 5:06 pm EST

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Mike-
Why are you answering my question with another question?
What good things happened for you (besides $13 a week extra, which by the way u will be taxed on as income) For the past year?

And also, the Republicans have done nothing to stop anything Obama has tried. The Congress and Senate have had majority and they could not be stopped for past year of passing anything. Physically, there was a majority in both Senate and Congress. Republicans have had absolutely not an ounce of power in a year. So I believe you are mistaken to say teh R's did anything wrong, teh Dems have been writing and passing everything they could PARTISAN completely
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 4:22 pm EST

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Yea, sometimes the truth is painful NN

Get used to it, the tides have turned, no more oppressed living under the brutal dictatorship of the Liberal regime
Thanks to Sen Scott Brown and teh people of Massachusetts
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 4:15 pm EST

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AYK,

I've given thought to answering your question. Of course it's only been a year since Obama was elected, and the republicans have been trying to thwart him at every step. It seems their only mission is to make sure the President of the United States is ineffective and nothing gets accomplished for the American people. If it wasn't so sad I'd get a kick out of how so many Republicans run for office and and then tell you that you can't trust the government. If you're going to run for office do something! Don't just tell us how we can't trust you.

The unemployment rate hit 10.8% by the end of Reagan's second year. I do have answers for you but realistically we should be willing to give Obama a little more time instead of working to destroy him. I would like to ask you the same thing about Bush who was in office for 8 years. That should have been ample time to see what kind of job he did and make some solid observations.

In your opinion- what exactly did George Bush do for all the citizens of the USA during his eight years in office. And personally, how have you benefited?

Note: I apologize to those republicans who are actually working for the American people. As I said before there are good republicans out there, one I supported and would have voted for had he been in my district. It's a shame that bickering like this has to go on. We are all in this together and we should be working together instead of trying to destroy members of the party we are opposed to.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 4:14 pm EST

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Though it is rather difficult to figure out what AYK is saying, she is far and away the biggest idiot on this site. That or she might be the most horrible excuse for a person in the state. Either way, her comments make me ill.
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 3:41 pm EST

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/21/pelosi-votes-arent-there_n_431430.html

PELOSI: Votes Aren't There for Senate Healthcare Bill
--------------------------
Nancy Pelos (D-Calif.) said Thursday.

"I don't think it's possible to pass the Senate bill in the House," Pelosi told reporters at her weekly press conference. "I don't see the votes for it at this time."
---------------------
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 2:58 pm EST

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elect me and i'll solve the federal government's fiscal problems with some common sense. how? not easy, but it can be done.
1st, i won't spend more money than what's in the bank.
2nd, special interest groups are out. need a 1.2 million dollar pedestrian bridge so you can observe the mating habits of a three toed spotted salamander? sorry, if its that important, have a bake sale and let the people decide if it is.
what's that nasa? you need billions of dollars to see if there is ice on mercury? sorry, go see ted turner and bill gates, or better yet, have a bake sale.
3rd, carry around a copy of the constitution to show other politicians of what we can and can't do. then start the process of eliminating the staggering amount of federal divisions and agencies not outlined in afore mentioned document.
department of education, sorry, it is not the federal governments job to educate people, that's the states job.
health care, sorry, its not the feds job to provide health care.
the list would go on and on. no doubt alot of people would suffer. but the way we are going now, government is so big and bloated it cannot sustain itself. if the politicians would follow the constitution and not read between the lines, we would not be in this mess.

remember, seat belts don't save lives, they save your life. having the informed decision to wear one or not, should be your decision, not the governments.
-- Posted by andrew turner on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 2:33 pm EST

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NN-
Read Saul Alinsky rules for Radicals and teh Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes these liberals to a "T"
Once you know what kind of mentality and idealogies these people thrive on, then its easy to deal with them. Give them facts-they call you names
Give them your opinion- they call you names
Their strategy is to shut down and keep teh silent majority silent. Oh and dont forget the guilt trips- poor people, eating your children, starving the poor.....all that rhetoric used ot work, as matter of fact taht is why we are at this junction now. Unfortunately they use the blacks and poor to demonize everyone else, but the facts are, the blacks and poor are no better off for all their liberal spending for past 30yrs.
WHY? The union money doesnt go to unions-it goes to wealthy union bosses
money desont go to poor and actually buy them homes outright- they twist and extort the banks to giving bad loans to poorpeople taht simply have not enough income, recipe for disaster. And on and on

At the end of the day-ask yourself---Where has the billions of dollars gone. Have YOU had a better year this year? Do you have more money in teh bank, are your pensions busting & can you take a vacation. I am willing to bet NO NO NO.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 1:58 pm EST

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Mike-
in your opinion- What exactly has Obama done for all the citizens of the USA from January 20,2009 until today

And personally, how have you benefited?
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 1:15 pm EST

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AYK,

In response to your earlier post.

Yes Reagan did give us massive tax cuts. How did that work out? He took the national debt from $700,000 billion to $3 trillion. Doesn't sound like his policies worked out too well when it came to managing the budget.

It took a democrat named Clinton to bring us back to a balanced budget, and a republican named Bush to take us to an $11.3 trillion national debt. By the end of 2008 the U.S. had lost 2.6 million jobs. Remember he was big on tax cuts too especially to his base; the super-rich.

I'm not sure about you but it doesn't seem to me like republicans have done a good job of managing our budget. I'm at least willing to give Obama a chance to see if he can get us out of this mess.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:56 pm EST

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There is socially liberal in a sense, with you guys going overboard with teh radical stuff like gay marriage. Socially liberal back then is not what the progressive nuts are like and wanting now. Socially liberal to JFK was a romp with Marilyn Monroe, not running a gay brothel out of his home like Barney Frank
JFK was teh good Democrat's era
Bend over Barney is teh way out in the left field liberal, he just hijacked teh democratic party because there was no progressive party to latch on to
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:29 pm EST

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On another happy note- Mizter Watercloset
Speaking Big Bucks, teh Buck stops with Obama-Bucks
take a gander at his top contributors: (if u need to see what kind of bank it is google it) jsut an FYI to help you

University of Calif
GOLDMAN SACHS
HArvard UNiversity
Microfost
Google
CITIGROUP
JP MORGAN
Time Warner
MORGAN STANLEY
General Electric

ANd, how many of those listed above were having financial troubles..BUT, they had enough money to DONATe to Obama Campaign

Kinda Fishy ,..... <><
And now this Mr Obama is bashing the banks for political reasons so the people think OH big bad banks. Dont fool yourself, he has his hand out ont he other side
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:52 am EST

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@ Are you kidding - Are you kidding? JFK would be a Republican today? How clueless are you? You even describe him as "socially liberal". what planet do you live on to think that any Republican is socially liberal. You have entered the area of being a total joke.
-- Posted by Matthew Lyons on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:50 am EST

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Not all Democrats are liberals.
There once was the JFK's, fiscally conservative, socially more liberal
Today, JFK teh Peoples President would be a Republican

And I do not agree with all Republicans, on teh contrary, tehy have buckled and spent way too much. Lets get this clear, unlike you loyal libs, we republicans want our lawmakers to stop spending money and massive tax cuts are in order
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:19 am EST

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Watercloset-
You and I will agree to disagree on virtually all liberal ideology.
Progressive libs have a mixture of socialism, commie & marxism
Libs prefer govt control, govt providing everything and all the rules and regs against the businesses, big govt, oodle amounts of beaurocracy and a weak defense and military degrading our CIA and soldiers, and protecting terrorists, oh and libs like spending other peoples money, using global warming to extort money from people via taxes trying to scare people that the world was going to melt, and the libs like welfare, but they barely give the people enough to get out of system, the libs keep people poor and under their control for lifes basic needs
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:16 am EST

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"And what did Ronald do??
MASSIVE TAX CUTS
not more spending, not more taxes"

Yes, ark, and he, bankrupted the country and turned us from a creditor nation into a debtor nation. That's all the GOP has done is bankrupt us.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:08 am EST

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Ok Watercloset-
an Obama just personally sat down and took bribes from Union Bosses and thugs to give union bosses billions in tax cuts
.

So hows teh change working out for ya?
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:08 am EST

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"When President Bush did a 'stimulus'- he gave the cash to the people to either pay bills or buy food or whatever they needed, $300 per person, kids and elder adults"

ARK, you so coveniently forgot what he gave to his wealthy friends in lavish tax cuts and other rewards. You forgot that he busted the budget and bankrupted us with these reckless tax cuts. Your $300 was just a sop to us.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:04 am EST

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When President Bush did a 'stimulus'- he gave the cash to the people to either pay bills or buy food or whatever they needed, $300 per person, kids and elder adults

When Mr Obama gave his 'stimulus' to the people- he authorized , get this....... $13 a week extra in only working tax paying people pockets.Not kids in house or elders

HMMMM
see the difference, then u ask, who cares more about each person??
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 10:14 am EST

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That is correct Mike-
And what did Ronald do??
MASSIVE TAX CUTS
not more spending, not more taxes

The Obama agenda is teh antithesis of Ronald Reagan
----------------------------------------------------------
What did JFK (the beloved do)?
TAX CUTS- not more spending, not more taxes
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 10:10 am EST

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NN-
Read Saul Alinsky rules for Radicals and teh Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes these liberals to a "T"
Once you know what kind of mentality and idealogies these people thrive on, then its easy to deal with them. Give them facts-they call you names
Give them your opinion- they call you names
Their strategy is to shut down and keep teh silent majority silent. Oh and dont forget the guilt trips- poor people, eating your children, starving the poor.....all that rhetoric used ot work, as matter of fact taht is why we are at this junction now. Unfortunately they use the blacks and poor to demonize everyone else, but the facts are, the blacks and poor are no better off for all their liberal spending for past 30yrs.
WHY? The union money doesnt go to unions-it goes to wealthy union bosses
money desont go to poor and actually buy them homes outright- they twist and extort the banks to giving bad loans to poorpeople taht simply have not enough income, recipe for disaster. And on and on

At the end of the day-ask yourself---Where has the billions of dollars gone. Have YOU had a better year this year? Do you have more money in teh bank, are your pensions busting & can you take a vacation. I am willing to bet NO NO NO.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 10:07 am EST

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AYK,

Don't forget that the unemployment rate reached 10.8% in 1982 under conservative hero Ronald Reagan and people still gave him a chance.

The unemployment rate is currently 10% and I don't think anyone in their right might could argue that this country was in good financial shape when Obama took over.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 10:06 am EST

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AYK- Your to be applauded for your staying power. to much name calling by the libs aka progessives.Why not change the behavior. You cannot alter their name calling and convictions . Look what happened in Mass. They still do not get the message. Look at JA's behavior. His behavior on these bogs is abominable and teh T.A. does nothing. .
-- Posted by None None on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 9:42 am EST

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Our economy is better? Where Iran? Venezuela?
Certainly not in the United States-
Unemployemnt ROSE AGAIN to 482,000, it didnt go down, there are no new jobs, it rose 40,000 more than Dec.

Dont forget these numbers dont show those who are off unemployment, or currently collecting welfare, or collecting social security disability, or those that just gave up looking.
What do you think the real number of people THAT ARE NOT GAINFULLY EMPLOYED are?
I think close to 25 maybe 30 percent by now

Not to mention teh NAACP advises Obama has done NOTHING for the african-american people, their unemployemnt according to NAACP is 45%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So tell me, WHERES THE BILLIONS??
In liberal pockets, not the poor or middle class
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 9:15 am EST

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CF Reality,

Well said. I was at one time a registered republican, although most of mind friends would find that hard to believe now. After watching what the republicans tried to do during the mid-nineties with the appropriations bill I decided that I could no longer belong and switched my registration to the democratic party.

I have been pretty disgusted with the R party as of late, but I've also seen good people from the party (seems hard to find them on the national level though). I personally knew a republican legislator where I used to live. The R party tried to kick him out because he wouldn't go along with them on every single issue. They decided he was a bad republican and ran someone else against him in the primary. You know what happened. He easily beat the person they ran against him and went on to win the election because the people in his town knew he was a good person and a man of integrity. I would have voted for him if I had lived in his district.

Unfortunately the republican party has to a large degree moved away from the belief that you should let people live freely. They seem more focused on telling others how they should live their lives, and protecting big business and the super-rich while caring nothing for the working poor and middle class.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 8:04 am EST

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You know what is really sad.

Our economy is turning around. Things are slowly looking better every day. All within a year of Obama being in office.

But you know the hardcore conservatives are going to start saying it had NOTHING to do with Obama and his people.

They will give all the credit to themselves and the fact that Scott Brown won!

That is the scary, twisted, and seriously messed up truth. You can already see it on the likes of AYK's messages. They think the world is already safer... lol.

Scary people live in this world. AYK is definitely one of them.



Word to the wise..... (About morals)

I've known many religious people. I was NOT nearly as religious as they were. But I definitely had more morals compared to the rest.

An (R) or (D), or even religion, doesn't equal a good moral person. And any one certainly doesn't make them more moral than another.

Morals come from good decision making.
(Personal decision making. NOT MAKING DECISIONS FOR OTHERS. DECIDING WHAT OTHERS CAN OR CANNOT DO WOULD BE CONSIDERED BAD MORALS. YOU ARE NOT HERE TO JUDGE AND JURY. THAT IS GOD'S JOB!)

Let's look at your decision making! Shall we?

Does someone have good morals for believing (R) is more moral than (D). Or that a religious person has more morals than a non-religious person?

That is a FAT NO!

You do not have ALL of the good morals and you do not have good decision making. (You assume too much after seeing "(R)")

You are truly a SHEEP following your flock! You think you know why you make the decisions you make. (But those have already been proven wrong.)

The reason you choose what you choose =

(R) = And what YOU think it stands for! (But we know you were lied to. They don't stand for what you stand for.)


It must be a very sad and simple life you lead.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 3:42 am EST

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o.O

There is still one problem for the conservative party.

You have the "Hardcore Conservatives" and the more "Moderate Conservatives".

Scott Brown is a more moderate conservative. *Pro-Choice*, etc... He is conservative but he uses his head. He doesn't follow "Republican or Bible doctrine".

Let's look at the NH conservatives. They have broken themselves into 2 different categories awhile ago. Is this the look of the future? 2 kinds of conservatives that can't stand eachother in one political party? (It's already begun. Why do you think Democrats control the majority when they are NOT the majority?)

Personally, I'm a moderate slightly leaning right or left depending on the topic, like Scott Brown.



As for the RWNJ's (Right-Wing-Nut-Jobs) on this site. Just look at some of them. They talk about good morals coming back, god fearing, blah blah blah, etc...

Isn't this man Pro-choice?

Wake up!!!!!! Do you even think before you start typing?

I made this point before and I'll make it again....

All that some of these people care about is that there is a (R) near the name.

These same people assume all Democrats are liberals and socialistic. (Bernie Sanders is an Independent who sometimes refers his party as Democratic socialism.)

So why do they assume that all Democrats are Liberals and socialistic?

Because..... It is quite simple......

These are God fearing people. They hope to use once scary words or phrases like socialism, and communism to drive fear into people. They hope that we are easily manipulated like they are, with fear.

It's actually quite sad that they can't figure out the truth.


Truth=

Many Moderates and even those that lean slightly left would naturally be in favor of someone like Scott Brown. And we are not afraid to vote for the "better man". That is why he won.

We are not like you. We don't vote for the (R) or (D). We vote for the better person. Sometimes it will be (R). Sometimes it will be (D).

The true problem with RWNJ's and LWNJ's is that you will never be able to see the person for who they are. Again, you are only looking to those that tell you what to do. OR you are looking for the (R) or the (D) to vote upon.

But what really astonishes me is the "moral value crap".

Again.....

He may have an (R) near his name. But you may want to look into his ideals. He doesn't carry ALL of your ideals. Unlike you, Scott has a brain and uses it. He is not controlled by the fear of god.

Many of your statements below show that you have no clue about this man.

But you are soooo glad he won?

That's messed up!

And you think Democratic's are all socialistic?

Your mind is so messed up that you would vote for a man that has (R) near his name.... You are brainwashed and controlled. You THINK you know this man. You THINK he had your ideals. You THINK he was on your team.

But is he? YOU DON'T HAVE A F'n CLUE!!!.... LOL

Ask yourself... "Why did you want him to win if you know little to nothing about him?"

(R)?
-- Posted by CF Reality on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 3:10 am EST

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nad TO AD 2 WAHT I WAS SYAIN, PROGS N LIBS R JUST AS BAD AS CONS!!!!!!!

teh onlee SEN WHO reelie reps teh reel WNATS OF TEH AMERACAN PEEPLE IS BERNY SANDERS!!! UP WIT SOCIALIZM AND ATHEIZM!!!!!!!! WeMUSTdEFAT teh TEAPARTY AND theirsez Idaelds!!#!
-- Posted by I Am Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:16 am EST

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y CNA no1 c taht wii nede younaversil helth care so me and meh marxist/commie/socialist buddies up by teh whyte house nad at teh staythouse can hlp rip off teh hardwrkin CONSERVATIVES and metaphrcally spit in thier TEA!!!!!!! THEY'RE'S A REEZON Y CONSRVATVE CAN ABBRVAYT 2 "CON". I give teh hint! its b/c tehy r teh CONs whihc r pulln hour grayt nayshun in2 da ground!!!!!!!

DOWN WITH TEH CONFEDERATION UP WIT TEH STATE!!!! FEDRAL GOVT 4EVER!!! GLENN BECK IS A CLOSET REPUB!!!!!!!
-- Posted by I Am Kidding? on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:13 am EST

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Obama is not a progressive, in case you hadn't noticed.
-- Posted by Sandra Bettis on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:13 am EST

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It amazes me how the conservatives say such vicious things then accuse the liberals of doing it. They must be in an alternate reality. And the figure of uninsured Americans is 45 million, not 45,000. You seem to forget that there is a large population that is either self employed or does not work for a company which offers insurance or is not eligible for Medicaid or Medicare. And 'liberals don't pay taxes'?? I wonder where you get your info....
-- Posted by Sandra Bettis on Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:09 am EST

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Fox News ran a piece that says, "U.S. Trails other in Health Care Satisfaction."

Fox News! I know! Can you believe it!? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:51 pm EST

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You do realize J.A. your not a nice person! Nor civil ! Nor informed! Nor pay attention! You have a sharp demeanor that is not well received on these blogs and maybe you should consider migrating elswhere where name calling is well received. If the T.A, censor were on the ball they would invite you to migrate. But alas, what would one do if we didn't have one person that is anatomically perfect in everyway ie. a perfect Ar%4-Hole with a name to fit.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 10:09 pm EST

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Hi JA Reda watr closets comment mde todayat 6:18 pm. Oh yes I forgot you cannot read only criticize. Sorry I forgot reading to you is mentally chalenging
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 9:58 pm EST

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Does anyone have any clue what this bozo is talking about? His post is at:
None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 9:31 pm EST
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 9:40 pm EST

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Why are 45,000 Vermonters without Health Insurance? You have Dr.Dinosaur and Medicaid in Vermont! What am I missing? I have a feeling that 576,000 Vermonters left have some form of self Health Insurance either Blue Cross-Blue Shield Health Insurance ,State of Vt Health Insurance, Vermont Teachers Health Insurance or AAARP Health Insurance or some other private Company Health Insurance or gap health insurance out of 621,000 Real Property taxpayers in the State. 2nd question: Why do you use other Democratic coutnries to contrat statistics with? Where? Europe-Nope! Canada-Nope! ?????? Watercloset are your facts on target or manufactured?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 9:31 pm EST

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Oh and Watercloset- Go back to your Green Mountain Daily, and tell them their article on Scott Brown is wrong. Your liberal friends have tingles up their legs because they wrote Sen Brown is up for re election in 2010 and your friends think 2010 is a presidential election year.
And you really wonder why liberal news organizations are in the toilet---no pun intended LOL ahahahhaha
Sorry Closet- Senator Brown has been CHOSEN by the people to serve until 2012

Again, check the facts maam

YUP Those GreenMtnDaily kooks wrong info again-

"by: JulieWaters
Wed Jan 20, 2010 at 04:39:28 AM EST
First piece of good news is that this is short-lived. The guy has to run for reelection again in 2010 and the odds of him being able to keep his seat once he has an actual record in the Senate is relatively slim, especially in a presidential year."
..............................
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 7:14 pm EST

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Andrew,

So.... because there are only 2 constant conservative voices here we are lying? Riiiiiiiight, give me an example. Since I am on here "24/7" it should not be hard. I will be watching for your reply. I bet you wont though, too afraid of having to think for yourself for once....

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 6:55 pm EST

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Watercloset-
Remember the American Revolution...a fight from tyranny and taxation.
Well it jsut happened again, history does repeat itself. In Massachusetts no less, the people voted to stop the Liberal Dictatorship in DC and all of their taxation upon teh people, taking money that doesnt belong to them.......And tea Party Express helped...how ironic!!!!!!
Made full circle.
We are not Europe, we are United States of America.
We do not want European nationalized banks, health, car companies, insurance companies, telling execs how much money they can make, & give the libs the leftover..............FORGET IT LOL

This is America, embrace it and our way of life based upon a free market system and making lotsa money and FREEDOM.
If money wasnt an option, why do you jealous libs want a piece of the action without even working for it>? Get a job that give u insurance & suck it up and pay for it yourself. You just might have to quit smoking pot and use your pot money for health insurance. If they ever had a notion of govt insurance, they ought to do drug testing and not allow druggies to beon public health either.

On an unrealted note-Watercloset....old bathroom.......Why do you call yourself a toilet? IS it because your full of S----t??? Should we flush the progressive liberals???LOLOLOLOL
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 6:54 pm EST

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'The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program.' - Ronald Reagan

Hey AYK What are your thoughts on this one?
'
Vermont's Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it'
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 6:48 pm EST

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"There is a way to provide insurance for 45,000 people. "

ARK, for once you are right about something:), though incorrect in your solutions. There is a way to provide insurance for the 45,000 Vermonters that for one reason or another lack insurance. It's called single-payer. That is the only way. Even before the GOP shipped all the jobs that they could get out of here over to China, there were still thousands upon thousands lacking insurance. A single-payer health care system is the only way. It works in every other democratic country.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 6:18 pm EST

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Ah yes, the beauty of being the boss and reaping the rewards Dandy Andy
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 4:33 pm EST

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I really wish I had as much time to look on here as much as AYK and Jeff Perkins do. Its gotten so bad that they are not just showing themselves to be idiots when responding to other peoples comments, but they respond to their own comments as well!

That may be the difference between the two of them and the rest of the community - they are too busy writing on here nearly 24/7, while the rest of us make sure what we say has at least some factual basis before we say it.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 4:12 pm EST

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The state and local govts rely on taxing gas and beer and cigarettes, and plan on oodles of money.
But when people cut back smoking, stop drinking beer, and count their trips to the store,,,well the state has a budget shortfall and they scratch their heads.

We the people modify our behavior, and buy what we want.
Now if there were plenty of JOBS, everyone can buy their own insurance food etc. If someone wants to buy Ho Ho's for dinner so what, their business, or a steak and rice, our choice. Its their money they earned it.

JOBS FIRST, then the rest will follow-
--------------------------------------------------------
Then they wonder why poor people cant afford their Green Mtn power bills? Well, their global warming green crap has put so many rules and regs, the elctric companies AGAIN, see always get their money,,,but the rules force the costs onto us Again
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 2:04 pm EST

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There is a way to provide insurance for 45,000 people.
JOBS JOBS JOBS
Congress has the cart before the horse.
JOBS first-then people can buy their own insurance

Massive tax cuts are needed for coprorations and small business and regular people.
The rich will always find a way to be rich, they will even take their business out of the country, so chasing 'rich evil people isnot the answer' you will jsut find yourself jobless, they will find a way.
Every person has their limits, the liberals have taken kindess as a weakness, and thought they could squeeze a dime here and there, from the so-called-rich. Well all those dimes are now adding up, and this country is headed for bankruptcy.

Also when they keep taxing, gas cigarettes, things, stuff, not only sales tax, but this ridiculous USE tax, well its always passed on to consumer. So we now have same paycheck, but doesnt go as far, then the Feds cant control spending, and now our dollar is losing value, the opposite can happen and massive hyper -inflation and you'll be taking a suitcase of money to buy a loaf of bread.

Its gotta start with massive massive tax cuts across the board, let people ahve their own jobs to buy their own food, oil, insurance, rent, daycare etc
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 1:52 pm EST

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Marxist refers to the ideologues that have co-opted a once moral-ed and decent party to the edge of communism. This administration is filled with them. Marxism,communism,liberalism,progressive take your pick are all kissing cousin's. Karl Marx's Dictatorship of the proletariat in practice has always devolved into dictatorship period. The classless society invariably becomes two classes,the ruling and the ruled whom are exploited.( 6 to 8 million killed under Lenin, Stalin estimated at17 million, worked out well for the Cubans too.) so the reference to oligarchy in practice stands. This administration and the Democrat party leadership is strong arming and bribing colleagues to ram what they want in spite of the clear opposition of the American people. I believe this puts them in that category. George Bush is gone take a deep breath and move into the now.
-- Posted by steve forrest on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 1:50 pm EST

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If the problem is pre-existing conditions, they can draft a bill today, stating no one can be denied coverage. Congress makes rule and regulations every week. Sinple.

if they can cap executives pay, they can also cap how much money someone can get in a lawsuit for medical malpractice. They can also cap lawyers income as well, since lawyers like to take cases based on a percetage fee for case, lawyers can be required to have a flat fee. that would certainly cut down on litigation, and halt the ambulance chasers
So many things happen in life that simply accidents, thats why theyre called accidents, no malice, butt his has become such a sue happy society, the fraud has run rampant without much of a punishment
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 1:46 pm EST

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Americans are not wishing to be like Europe...except as a tourist and come home. We had teh American Revolutionary War and tea parties to get away from Europe and its taxes and rule.
In a sense, yesterday was the American Revolution of 2010,history was repeated and amzingly it has come full circle...... very fitting to start all over again in Massachusetts. We the People are tired of the taxation.
The single payer is the antithesis of being conservative as it is derived from taking money from everyone to contribute to peole only using the program. We already have welfare and medicaid for the indigent.... The current bills in DC do not help people already paying their insurance one iota, only people that dont have insurance. Republicans and Demorats have spent our money and nickle and dimed us to death,,and now enough is enough.
Election of Scott Brown was in a sense a tax revolt, and there is more to come
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 1:40 pm EST

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I'm pretty sure I would be labeled a liberal by some who post here. I'm in favor of single-payer. But I am, and always have been fiscally conservative. I don't believe in wasting money. That's why I drive an old pick-up and would not make fun of Scott Brown for driving one as AYK mentioned.

I was torn by the bill coming our of Washington. It would have done some good things like ending insurance companies rescinding your policy just when you need it most and stopped denial for pre-existing conditions. I don't think it would have driven down costs substantially. If it were to pass in anything resembling its current form it would end up primarily being a huge bonanza for insurance companies without enough of a return for American citizens. If it fails it will not sadden me greatly because I don't think it would have been that good a deal for the American people. Sen. Bernie Sanders did not like this bill much and might not have voted for it except for the inclusion of the creation of community health centers around the country, something that not only helps people greatly but saves money because it keeps people out of the emergency rooms which we all end up paying for in the end.

There must be some way to do a better job of providing health care in this country. It's estimated that 45,000 people die each year because of lack of health coverage. We also force 700,000 people into bankruptcy every year because of medical costs. You know how many that happens to in France, Britain, Japan or Germany: zero. My concern over the horrors that so many Americans face when it comes to health care and my belief that single-payer is the best way to handle it is why some would label me a liberal. For those open-minded enough to study this issue there's a very good article by someone who has researched it extensively. It's at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778_pf.html

The current system is also hurting us when it comes to small business, innovation, and global competitiveness. http://www.cfr.org/publication/13325/ - http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE54P2RJ20090526

I think we need to give up our arrogance and look at what other countries have done, and take the best parts of those systems to create a system that not only provides health care for everyone but saves us money at the same time. We cannot continue to pay twice what other countries do for health care and expect to remain competitive with the rest of the world. We will not be giving up our freedoms if we force our representatives to listen to us on this issue. We will be demanding them.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:30 pm EST

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To all the fiscal conservative commenters: Can we galvanize and accomplish these events in Vermont aka Leahy and Sanders not going back to the Senate? Are their enough independent voters in Vermont to accomplish this end?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:19 pm EST

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Hey ML,
59-41
The best you can hope for is that nothing gets done?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:58 am EST

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nn,

From God, maybe not, but from smart, educated, and well informed Americans, You Bet. The people of Mass could very well have just saved the future of America with this one.

You lefties are so ignorant and blinded by you undying love of Obama, that you can not even see what is happening. I would call it a VERY SYMBOLIC and meaningful blow to OBAMA and the PROGRESSIVE AGENDA. Will they get anything done now? Nope, and thank God, I would rather not get anything done than have Obama ramming through garbage unchecked, ankrupting America.

Think about it, one of the most liberal states in the country just voted in a republican. Not only a republican, but one who replaces TED KENNEDY, a champion of single payer healthcare, and it was all done in a state where they already have universal healthcare. They are not pleaseed with Obama, they are not pleased with universal healthcare, they are not pleased with liberal ideas and solutions, in one of the most liberal states. You all sure did wonders on this one. Obama was suppose to be the great unifier, and he is, it's just that he is unifying the independents and the the republicans, HAHA.

Only the democrats could elect someone worse than Bush and be so proud of the fact. I really thought that the right was going to be out of the picture for a long time after Bush, but you morons elected the most radical, inexperienced, and deceitful, politicians from the most politically corrupt city in the nation and its a smelly mess when the $h!t hits the fan.

You get what you deserve, and you got Obama. This is the beginning, of the end for you liberals, again. Have a good day, I know I will.

Thank you to the people of Mass for voting with logic and commmon sense.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:40 am EST

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AYK, Scott Brown is a blessing from god? Really?
The election of a senator who changes the senate makeup to 59-41 and can only force a filibuster (but not actually pass anything) is a divine event?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 11:01 am EST

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NN-
Vermont was a very fiscally conservative state, and it still is as far as THE PEOPLE as concerned. The problem is the Vermont lawmakers are all liberal progressives and only govern with their socialist agenda and seem to think they can spend us intot he poor house with all the programs, and giving away millions for hundreds of non profit groups that really dont do anything for the citizens, except turn them back to Govt fed & state offices for the money needed for whatever is needed. Ironically, the state & Feds give these nonprofits money then the non profits use our money to lobby against us. Gee whats wrong with that picture?

We need to Fundamentally Change Vermont's direction, and we are 10 months away!
Sanders at one time last summer had emails etc psoted on his website for everyone to see. The problem was, ALL the emails to Sanders posted was for single payer and whining. THere wasnt ONE email to Sander(that he posted) against his position,

Check out Len Britton(R) from Woodstock running against Leahy. Good regualr guy like Scott Brown, a business owner, another Joe the Plumber

The libs can make fun of Folksy Sarah Palin, or Joe the Plumber, or Scott Browns old pick up and call them all dumb- BUT all those people represent main street normal Americans...So you BETCHA----they will be thinking about the direction now, their arrogance wont let them publically apologize, BUT, they have no choice to keep America as is---We are NOT EUROPE and dont want Europes naitonal healthcare, national banks, national auto companies, Energy taxes, etc.
Scott Brown was a blessing from GOD!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 9:07 am EST

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YK- Do you really think Senators Leahy and Oldefield the Socialist having lost an unimaginable Senate seat in Mass. an ultra liberal state because those of us independents became sick and tired of "Gimme My Fair share "and voted. What happens now to the monies Leahy and Oldefiedl took for their vote ? Is this the Spirit of Vermont? I don;t think so. The ultra-libs in this State had better put on their thinking caps again and come up with a different scene other than Gimme My Fair Share. If I were Leahy I would be concerned about how the independent vote in Vt will vote. This election may bring his Liberal career to a close. Could happen!
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 8:57 am EST

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Think Obammy, David EvilAxisrod and Rahm deadfish Emmanual are listening now?! His charm has long worn off and jinxed everyone he stumps for- Virginia chose Republican Gov, New Jersey , again chose a Republican Governor, He goes to Coepenhagen cant even get the Olympics,,,,and now Massachusetts chose a REPUBLICAN---now this is change, no more Kennedy status quo!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 8:32 am EST

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Dear Watercloset,

Why do some have health care via work and others don't? It's called a benefit and is available to anyone who is employed by an outfit that offers it. These benes, more often or not, require an employee contribution. The Mrs. pays over $4K a year for the opportunity; a portion of my salary is deducted as well. She also has the option not to participate in the comapny plan, however, in Vermont as the result of Howard Dean's efforts on behalf of reform participation in a company plan is a wise thing to do. By the way, many friends who had low cost coverage before Dr. Dean and community rating/guaranteed issue, lost that coverage and haven't had insurance since the early '90s. Once again they had coverage either as a benefit associated with their work or were able to afford coverage on their own. Howard reformed that...

Admitedly I'd like to see health care reform, however, what has been contemplated in Washington isn't sincere reform. Hopefully the debate will continue and real reform will come. If last night's election result in Massachusetts is any indication folks in what may be the most liberal state in the nation didn't buy it (Obama Care) and neither should we.
-- Posted by Ernest McDonald on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 8:30 am EST

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RGc None I dont want to have anymore to say to you about Civility and indiscretion and bad behavior. If we republicans and democrats and progressives and all others of different political minds work together the issue you identified can be addressed by all. In fact read Ms Hannah's article again. She wrote an excellent article and my presentation had a similar bent. I have a few suggestions where a mechanism can /could be introduced to deal with that burden but, no more taxes . Please! Plesase RCG None don't use that vile langusge again . Fair enough! Please grow up and be civil?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 8:26 am EST

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KIll the Bill-start over---NEVER NEVER a nationalized single payer HealthScare plan---

1- Tort reform- send a message to the greedy lawyers
2-Cap lawsuit awards for medical suits, just how much money does someone need because a doctor makes a mistake, money cant buy everything----If a person files a frivilous lawsuit just money hungry, courts need to charge them to pay for the doctor's attorney, loser pays court costs
3- Allow the 1,500 insurance companies to compete over state lines like any other product for consumers
4-No federal money at any amount going towards abortions, in any shape way or form. If they want to use abortion for birth control, they can pay it themselves or get their boyfriends to cough up the money or they can save up the money they wouldve blown on marijuana and pay for it, if its really that important

NONE of this has to be in a "bill"
having a 'bil' opens up the chances of the libs amending or adding
----------------------------------------------------

Each issue can and should be handled separately, Then the Libs wont be bribing other Dems for special inetrests or politcial favors. We'd be doing them a favor, remove their temptation
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 8:22 am EST

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@None None
I'm sorry, but when someone acts as elitist as you did in that post, I tend to defend the people you look down upon. I'm sorry if I stooped to your level.

I respect and have nothing against open-minded republicans who are able to engage in constructive debate and are able to accept facts and base their opinions off of the facts rather than what the pundits tell them. Do not insult all Vermont Republicans by saying they are so close-minded.

It's premature to know what will happen with the budget. Douglas just recently announced his proposal, give it some time.
-- Posted by RGC None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:11 am EST

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@AYK
The current bill is not a nationalized single payer health care plan no matter how you spin it. I challenge you give a link to a respected new organization or blog where this is said about the current bill. Even a conservative blog should value their credibility enough to not post outright lies.

I'm surprised you actually are suggesting some policies. I'm no expert on malpractice laws so I won't weigh in on your first two points, but in order to allow true competition over state lines among insurance companies, the federal government would have to take responsibility for regulating the market. Otherwise all insurance companies would just go to the state with the least regulation so they could profit the most off of the health of the American people. As far as abortion funding goes, I agree, federal money should not go towards such a controversial issue.

I have a few questions.

How do you intend to enact these changes without a bill?

Would you like to see a clause prohibiting discrimination by insurance companies based on preexisting conditions?

How would you like to see bankruptcies as a result of health expenses addressed?

Is it really okay that insurance companies are profiting by trying to deny care to injured people?

Is is better for care to be rationed by big corporations or by the government?
-- Posted by RGC None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:05 am EST

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RGC None: be nice and civil! If you cannot contain yourself , I would say your a poor looser and defitniely cannot read anything and react to it in a civil manner Now you resort to the hatered you have for republicans. Son! You had better get use to doing without or leave Vt.. it aiont' gooing to be preety ofr you.the avy train may have come to the end of the line. On another subject what happens to the stinulus monies form the Feds as to calming down the Vt overspending on Governemnt services? Will this mean the deficit in Vt will go from a hole of 150 million immediately to 230 million or will tha hole "come up" for filling next year?
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 12:01 am EST

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KIll the Bill-start over---NEVER NEVER a nationalized single payer HealthScare plan---

1- Tort reform- send a message to the greedy lawyers
2-Cap lawsuit awards for medical suits, just how much money does someone need because a doctor makes a mistake, money cant buy everything----If a person files a frivilous lawsuit just money hungry, courts need to charge them to pay for the doctor's attorney, loser pays court costs
3- Allow the 1,500 insurance companies to compete over state lines like any other product for consumers
4-No federal money at any amount going towards abortions, in any shape way or form. If they want to use abortion for birth control, they can pay it themselves or get their boyfriends to cough up the money or they can save up the money they wouldve blown on marijuana and pay for it, if its really that important

NONE of this has to be in a "bill"
having a 'bil' opens up the chances of the libs amending or adding
----------------------------------------------------

Each issue can and should be handled separately, Then the Libs wont be bribing other Dems for special inetrests or politcial favors. We'd be doing them a favor, remove their temptation
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:44 pm EST

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Actually None None, Jest Arsenkissen thought I was you. Kinda funny, but shows the liberals desperation to change teh subject and resort to personal attacks. Blah Blah Blah
Doesnt matter, their tactics dont work anymore, old Alinsky worshippers rhetoric


What is important is we Take back Vermont and these guys need to get a grip on their spending sprees and liberal social agendas
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:30 pm EST

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More Tea Party Lies!
More Tea Party Deceit and Arrogance!
More News about Tea Parties!

The American (people who agree with AYK) people have been heard___and they agree that Martha Coakley ran a terrible campaign that even Obama couldn't salvage a win in "Massachusettes" despite his 53% approval rating in the exit polls.

I'm not sure God should bless Scott Brown though... He's pro-choice and that means he doesn't fear God enough... Except FOX News told me that he's a good guy... and everyone knows that they are blessed by God over at FOX News... so I guess he's alright... but wait, is it alright to be pro-choice AND blessed by God... oh, I know, only if you run under the Republican ticket.

Anyways, the democrats still have a larger majority than the republicans have had since the 20's... the only difference is that republicans seem to think that they're in the majority whenever they have more than 40 members in the senate. Oh well, they still have awhile to vote "no" on anything the democrats want because that's what the democrats want before more people catch on.
-- Posted by RGC None on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:27 pm EST

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Hey AYK Calm yourself. I wonder what Jeff Arsekisser will say now. I told you this would happen last night and the only comment i Heard was from J.A ridiculing my comment about Brown? Now Vt has two Liberals to deal wth Senator Barny Oldefield,soon, the $300 million Senator for Health care clinics in Vermont for the indigents and 90 million $ from Leahy for Medicaid occupants. I wonder what happens to those bucks now???? What say you libs How does it feel? No more gimme my fair share.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 11:21 pm EST

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NO MORE LIBERAL LIES
NO MORE LIEBRAL DECEIT and ARROGANCE
NO MORE BRIBES BY LIBERALS

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HEARD____DOWN WITH THE OBAMMY REGIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOOOHOOOOOO

GOD BLESS SCOTT BROWN FOR SAVING OUR COUNTRY!! AN American HERO, GO BACK TO YOUR CLOSETS AND BASEMENTS LIBERALS!!!!!!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 10:01 pm EST

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The End of the LIBERAL DICTATORSHIP of teh American People!!

SCOTT BROWN WON!!!!

WOOHOOOOOOOOO!

DOWN WITH THE FRUITY LIBERALS AND THEIR KOOKY AGENDA!!!!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 9:47 pm EST

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@steve forrest
So, by Marxist you mean not Marxist, and by oligarchy you mean elected by the people? I guess in 2001, after Bush won on the back of the supreme court, our government could be called an oligarchy, but right now you're just plain wrong.

And please understand Marxism before using it.
-- Posted by RGC None on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 4:35 pm EST

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RGC, thanks for the translation. Keep up the good work.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 2:49 pm EST

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I can't wait to see how meaningless this election is.....

and so they begin! Referring to a socialist sycophant from the communist news network really. Even if brown doesn't win today the stage is set for a resounding defeat for the Marxist oligarchy that has taken control of the democratic party and this country. Mass. is one of the most liberal states if not #1. To say its meaningless is an example of the lefts amazing ability to live in their own little media controlled cocoon.
-- Posted by steve forrest on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 1:37 pm EST

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RCG & AYK= Amen-Amen! Scott Brown now. Leahy and Barney Oldefield in Vermont next. Bye-Bye!
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 1:28 pm EST

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"but she also makes the ridiculous lie of quoting non-existent "exit polls." Sweetie, exit polls are taken AFTER people have voted - that's why they call ......."

Tune in to Rachael Maddow for the real exit polls so you can hear what a lousy campaign Martha ran, how it really doesn't reflect on President Obama, how dangerous the troglodyte mobs are that support Brown,( who even said he didn't know if the President's mother was married when she gave birth to the messiah)
I can't wait to hear how meaningless this election is..........
-- Posted by coydog on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 1:13 pm EST

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AYK Translation
I am sorry, I am not related to any clowns, Kin of Jesters.

I am myself. =)
There are people here that are not democrats or moderates, and quite frankly those same people are conservatives. There are many of those people on the internet and they are moral and possess values and integrity. However, not everyone on the internet is like this. The people who are like this know to fear God and love the constitution, because God can be mean sometimes, but the constitution is like Grandma, and we have to love her even if she is sometimes misinterpreted by the Libyans because of her her thick old english accent. To go back to the God fearing internet users, we are not a group of Libyans, but something that I just can't think of at the moment, hence the ... at the end of this sentence...

A year ago, this blog was clogged up with Libyans like yourself, but now there are more Americans, and we Americans are against you greedy Libyans who try to be like Robin Hood (Except you actually are Libyans, not just wanna be Libyans, and you steal the money rather than giving it to the poor because you aren't like Robin Hood, and you're lazy which is why you're poor and whining all the time, which actually means that the money is going to the poor, but that's irrelevant).

I want: a government that only makes sure people love the constitution and fear God, less intrusions (except to make sure even people who don't fear God do his bidding), no regulations for small businesses (they're small, they should be allowed to rip people off), and especially get rid of environmental laws (I find them to be wacky)... I would also enjoy it if I could pay far less taxes. The good God-fearing and constitution-loving internet users want our lawmakers to uphold the constitution and get rid of the Libyans and their overspending (Libyans don't even pay taxes so why should they get to spend our money?).
-- Posted by RGC None on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 5:52 am EST

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Sorry to disappoint ya there Jest-asskissin

But I am just me =)
There are other people that do not hold your far lefty views, and quite frankly those same people share some of my conservative views.Not all of them but there are many on here that hold their morals, values and integrity, God fearing and constitution loving principles which is instilled in them, and that is who we are. Notta bunch 'o wishy washy progressive liberal sissies
........

A year ago, this blog was clogged up with Libiots like yourself, but there are more and more people writing and reading here that are simply fed up with the jealous, greedy robin-hood wanna be liberals( only money never really makes it to the poor, libs steal it)

Majority wants: smaller govt, less intrusions, get rid of all teh regulations that stifle small business, and especially get rid of the enviro whacko's...pay far less taxes, they want our lawmakers to uphold the constitution, get rid of the libs and their spending sprees( I know libs dont pay taxes, so its easier for them to spend other peoples money)
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 1:22 am EST

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WHAT'S BETTER - - - SINGLE PAYER OR MARRIED PAYER ?? ??

/
-- Posted by Olde Man on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 11:19 pm EST

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None None sez, "Hey did you hear the latest exit polls for the Mass Senate Scott brown is measdurable>7% ahead of the dem lib."

Looks like our friend, AyK is posting under another name! She not only uses the give-away name "dem lib" and makes her handfull of spelling mistakes but she also makes the ridiculous lie of quoting non-existent "exit polls." Sweetie, exit polls are taken AFTER people have voted - that's why they call the "exit polls." They poll people as they are exiting the polling places! That won't happen until tomorrow!

Hahahahahahahaha!

A liar under any name (AyK or None None) smells just as bad.

Keep up the good work!
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 11:02 pm EST

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another journalistic coo for the t.a editorial and reporter staff. while the nation is focused on the race for the liberal lions anointed seat in mass. they are focused on s*** in Montpelier. Can't wait to watch all you liberals make rubber man look rigid as a steel beam while you twist and contort the results in the peoples republic of mass. tomorrow
-- Posted by steve forrest on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 10:56 pm EST

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ayk - please research single payer as the rest of the world has. you go to a dr or to a hosp and you get your medical care - there is no application and no billing - EVERYONE is eligible - imagine that!
-- Posted by Sandra Bettis on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 10:45 pm EST

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Here we go again with the insults point adn coutner point. Holy smoke! I am going to change back to Hanna's comment for a minute and present a recommendation for a soltuion to hsi name calling. Their is a Company in Canada called Blue SKY Drugs ( one word).com that you can order prescription meds thorugh just by takng a prsecription from a US.dcotor or pharmacy and faxing it to them per their instructions on tbeir URL. Here is the URL the total costs is approximately the Cost of a Co Pay for US -AARP prescrition drugs. Here is their URl:http://www.blueskydrugs.com/default.aspx?refid=google&gclid=CJbEu6q4r58CFdA65QodUyb-1

Look it up. Maybe this will interfere with all this name callign and return this blog to some Sanity.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 10:34 pm EST

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LOL...

AYK is off her meds again. Maybe her medicare ran out?

In another comment she is upset with someone calling her names.

Isn't she aware that she calls everyone a _blank, _blank(en), _blank(ing), "liberal" everyday?

Even moderates, coservatives, and semi-conservatives.

If they don't agree with her on one topic. She instantly labels them "Liberal" weasles, etc, which I'm assuming is her "Enemy"!?!?



If this is the pride of the conservatives.

Their party will self-destruct in just a few years.
-- Posted by CF Reality on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 9:55 pm EST

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"You liberals are nuts or just plain in denial or arrogant (dontcha like choices) if you think there be no added paper pushers, desk jockeys, data entry clerks, fat cat supervisors.....and in the end"

ARK, like there are not now. Insurance companies have departments to deny claims that we pay for and their ceo's make millions a year, driving the cost up ever higher. Under single-payer that will not be the case. How many fat cats do you see driving fleets of bmw's and buying up condos at Stowe from medicare?
-- Posted by Watercloset on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 8:14 pm EST

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"Medicare and medicaid is not insurance, nor would be a single payer or public option, whatever name the libs shift their winds to."

AYK, , Why are Medicare and Medicaid not insurance? They are just as much insurance as blue cross blue shield or mvp. The only difference is that the first are public, the second are private, and the private ones routinely deny insurance, reject claims, and are the reason why so many millions are uninsured.

Ernest: "By the way why should any American pay more (or less) than any other American? Aren't we all Americans equally so with equal responsibilities?"

Yes, good question. Why do some Americans have insurance through work and others do not, even though both are working just as hard? Why cannot both be equal? And why is it penalizing hard work and the myth of success when the system rewards work in one guise and does not reward it in another. And why should health care be tied to one's work. If you work hard and ******** off anyway because Wall Street screwed up, should you lose your health insurance as well? No.


Although some folks have more there is usually a reason they do: They worked for it. Penalizing initiative, hard work and success doesn't make sense (penalizing greed on the other hand does).
-- Posted by Watercloset on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 8:06 pm EST

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Hey did you hear the latest exit polls for the Mass Senate Scott brown is measdurable>7% ahead of the dem lib. Watch out Senator Sanders and Senator Leahy you might be next? Especialy Leahy. Now all you guys have to do to ***** the pooch is to vote for the Obama health bill before the new Mass Republican Senator is seated and you can take it in the Gluteus maximus. A bien tote mes amis Senatores. Au revoir!
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 6:04 pm EST

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Jest, you might as well mock black people for the way they talk, or Jewish people, or Indian people, it is all just as derogatory.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 4:57 pm EST

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Yup, yup, and too I done heered that wot AyK iss a-sayin' be right and teh Obammys gonna track down oll them what's agin 'em and take 'em off'n merika and use Coober to store 'em afore they kill 'em. I heered it so it be so. Yup, it is.

Yu tell 'em AyK. They be gonna let'n yoou off cause you be crazyer n a ol' coon dog wot had his nose plugged up.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 4:06 pm EST

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Obama's grand plan is to create jobs via healthscare reform
-creating millions of jobs ALLpaid by TAXPAYER money sucked away via taxes, IRS penalties and fines, and naughties ones will have their bank accountsand assets seized for non-compliance when teh law arm of teh IRS reaches in...Good luck fighting that beaurocracy
-The $787B stimu-pork bill, already passes, has billions in it poised to set in motion as part of this grand scheme, people dont see this added billions towards this bill, since this nightmare is beingpassed in parts and pieces, oh
dont forget teh $250Billion to pre-pay doctors, and bribe them for their support, jsut money ahead of time
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 12:31 pm EST

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AYK,

Name calling does not make it so (except maybe in kindergarden).
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 12:06 pm EST

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Sounds like the single payer plan may end up taking $'s out of the pockets of the "Powers That Be". I am quite sure however that "They" can afford the loss much more comfortably than the working class (middle class/poor) whatever you choose to call it. There is far too much coruption involved and that is the reason this State and our Country is in such a shambles. When are people going to finally smarten up. I too have compassion for my fellow man. There are far more less fortunate than there are fortunate and the numbers are growing more for the "less" than the fortunate every day.
-- Posted by Stephen Kelty Jr. on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 10:59 am EST

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Medicare and medicaid is not insurance, nor would be a single payer or public option, whatever name the libs shift their winds to.

If the current bill in House and Senate are deficit neutral, and no taxes will be raised in anyway to pay for it, why do people have to wait 4 yrears to receive the benefits?
Because, taxes will be raised, and a slush fund will need to be created to pay docs and hospitals out of the Obama-care-slush-fund.
No admin costs huh? And just who do you think is going to send applics to people, review applications, make sure credits are given, answer the millions of phone calls asking questions or for help to fill out their applicaitons?
You liberals are nuts or just plain in denial or arrogant (dontcha like choices) if you think there be no added paper pushers, desk jockeys, data entry clerks, fat cat supervisors.....and in the end
Gee imagine that, how on earth did all the healthcare workers suddenly become union members of SEIU? Hmmmm, and you wondered why Andy Stern and his knee cap breakers had suchhhh an interest in this bill. Well now u know why, the ends justifies teh means in your liberal pea brains
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 10:29 am EST

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Hannah,

You listened to "Horror stories about hospitals and administration errors and insurance companies that refused approval for health care", and all you could think was "Will you quit whining." I don't really know what to think about that. The Vermonters I know are more compassionate than in any place I have ever lived. It's one of the things I love most about this state.

Small business owners should be praying for single-payer. They are among the most beat up by the current health care system. http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/heavy-doses/2009/09/29/survey-shows-small-business-hurt-by-health-care-costs/

And it's only going to get worse for employees and small businesses if something is not done about it. http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/19/news/economy/healthcare_openenrollment_changes/index.htm

We're already starting to suffer a loss in innovation compared to other countries because people in the rest of the civilized world don't have to worry about whether they will be able to afford health care or not. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE54P2RJ20090526

I sincerely hope that if you ever need the health insurance that you have chosen (and probably overpaid for) that you don't end up becoming one of those horror stories you listened to. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
-- Posted by Mike inVT on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 10:28 am EST

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Sandra : Your a spunky little lady but you are only adding fuel to this fire of cow organic deritus. For example, issues of not paying for Hospital Care or Doctor services being filed with the credit bureau only stay on your credit record at the most, 7 years. You also have the opportunity to mitigate their claims of not paying . Like! I didn't have a job or I was to sick to work and couldn't pay my bill! Lastly, when you can pay either your health care giver or go to tthe hospital or care giver pay your bill and ask them to remove the blemish on your credit report. If you want to see if your Credit has been damaged try to buy somethng on credit and be denied and then you can get a "free" credit report. It is the law i.e., a free credit report. So you credit is not damaged for life. Sorry! By the way thanks for writng your article it is/was a worthwhile contribution. Don't ******** out of shape by these no minds . They just travel from site to site bull pittuing their horns! You ought to see my names for them . Again thanks
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 8:08 am EST

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"The things the government does now would cost a fraction of what is currently does and the results would be twice a good, which would be better for everyone."

Jeff: Like health care, the things that government does if farmed out to privatization would cost five times as much while excluding or rationing many more based on their ability to pay. If you privatize the schools, only the rich will be able to afford an education and the poor -- well, to hell with them.

"Unfortunately, the lawmakers hear a few whiners and think they have to dismantle the whole system to accomodate the few people with issues."

ARK: The whiners happen to be a sizable majority that are sick of suffering under your preferred system (what health care program are you on anyway? Medicaid?) of ripping them off and want dramatic change to an unjust and cruel rationing system of health care.

"The middle class and working poor are just lazy, not disadvantaged in a system that is set up in which they make too much money for Medicaid and too poor to be able to afford conventional health insurance with the accompanying deductables and copays."

Barry Moos: Loved it:) Great one.

"Hannah is right who is going to PAY for this ????"

Angelo: Well, all of us are. We are already pay for it. We pay about 5 billion in Vermont for healthcare now, but it is not spread out evenly. And all of us will also get something that we pay for. Think of single-payer as a public insurance company. But, imagine for a minute, if you can, how the overall costs will drop when you do not have huge deductibles and co-pays tacked onto the premiums that you already shovel into those billions. But who are you shoveling it into: retirement packages of $7.25 million a year for insurance ceo's.

"It is amazing how people can be so void of reason!"

BSA: And who is it that has the judgement to determine if one is devoid of reason? Certainly, not you. For while you say my comments were devoid of reason you should look at your own. They lack even any resemblance to reason. And single-payers do cost less than our free-market mess. No matter how you try, you cannot deny that
-- Posted by Watercloset on Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 2:42 am EST

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I'm not sure where some of you people get your comments from - you assume things that you know nothing about and you do not read the posts correctly. I never said that health care would be free - I said it would be paid for with income taxes (the only fair way - based on a person's income) not by premiums paid to an insurance company who is making a profit. I said that single payer (which, by the way, as some of you don't seem to know, is not the proposal in Washington right now) would be cheaper because it would not be out to make a profit and the admin costs (close to 50
% of health care costs in the present 'for profit' system) would be 0 (no billing etc). Also, some of you seem to think that everyone has disposable income to pay for emergency medical care. Not true. And, to the person who said it would be written off, not true either. It goes on your record and you are ruined financially for the rest of your life. And, just for the record, I do have health care and I pay for it and I work and I'm not on any state aid whatsoever. But, unlike most of you, I have empathy for those not as fortunate as I have been.
-- Posted by Sandra Bettis on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:33 pm EST

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These commenters sound like their trying out for a spot
in the Bud Abbot & Lou Costelo routine.Whose on first?
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 6:44 pm EST

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Jeff,

We are talking about 18% of the economy here, and I fully support privatizing education and most other government services. The things the government does now would cost a fraction of what is currently does and the results would be twice a good, which would be better for everyone.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 6:18 pm EST

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The libs cant afford to support their pot smoking habits and be responsible for medical premiums.....so they get doped up & then whine about having no money
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 4:05 pm EST

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Watercloset,

You wrote: "Health Care is NOT a Human Right,,,Can't seem to find that in the Constitution.
It is a Individual Responsibility...."

What kind of right is it then? If you get cancer because of family genetics is that your "individual' responsibility? I also cannot find public education in the constitution either or fire or police departments. I cannot find an amendment strictly prohibiting alcohol in the original constitution, nor do I find an amendment giving women the right to vote. Does that alcohol and a woman's right to vote unconstitutional?

What is in the constitution is something generic about promoting the general welfare of the people. You could probably lump health care, public education, fire departments, etc. under that heading."

------


OR....you could re-read the Constitution with focus on the TENTH AMENDMENT and realize the founders were probably more disposed to let the States figure these things out on their own. Keeping it closer to home keeps a little more Representation in the Taxation.

-
-- Posted by Jeff Andrews on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 3:58 pm EST

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"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

"Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values."

"A desire presupposes the possibility of action to achieve it; action presupposes a goal which is worth achieving."

"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

"From the smallest necessity to the highest religious abstraction, from the wheel to the skyscraper, everything we are and everything we have comes from one attribute of man - the function of his reasoning mind."

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 3:38 pm EST

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yea....... what makes you think it will be different? If 100% of your income is taken from one persons pay then given to you, you still are "paying" out of the first guys
pocket. It was not earned by you or the governemnt, it was taken. So if there is say.... a $25 monthly fee to be in the government option, that is $25 that you got from someone else. When your healthcare cost goes beyond $25 month, then somone else will pay for the rest in a higher income bracket. No matter what, they people who need healthcare now will not pay for it under this system. How can they? The CBO says it will increase costs in the industry. So, how will the "30%" of the population who cant afford it now afford it under the plan without it being free "to them"?

Even though 85% of us all started with the same ability, potential, and yearning for knowledge, then something happens, and only 20% of the 85% actually TRY TO MAKE SOMETHING OF THEMSELVES. The rest just figure they can get paid pretty well by the government to sit on their butts and not do a damn thing. Well, except keep voting themselves more of other peoples money. Think of all the ability we waste every year because of programs that are suppose to "help" like this one. Think about all the waste in govt, it is more than the evil ceo's make, billion and billions more. But you just say, "give them another chance, they mean well" or "healthcare will be different". Wake up a realize that the only person resposible for you is YOU. The cost of anything will go up as long as people are not smart consumers. This bill does nothing to educate or empower the consumer, it takes away from them and gives the power to the government and drug companies.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 3:34 pm EST

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HAHA AYK, you should be a match maker if they are not, what a cure couple they would make! He could show her how brilliant he is all the time and she could use him for his money, he clearly does not like holing on to his income (1-2.5 million a year he reported from his company which employs 1-4 people). You could even say that benny boop the evil capitalist, money loving, bigot, does not pay his "fair share".
hahaha
ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 3:17 pm EST

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You are talking about programs that are already in place, not the health care system they are working on.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 3:15 pm EST

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Melissa,

You know darn well that there are many dem's who "know" it will be free, and they are moslty right. They will not have to pay a dime because they have negative tax implications. Meaning, they already get more out of the system than they pay in. You know it and I know, so wipe the dumb smirk off your face and admit that you are wrong.

You think that If a person gets welfare, food stapms, and medicare, that they are "paying" for their medicare costs? HAHAHAHa you right melissa, they are paying for them, WITH OTHER PEOPLES MONEY!

Whats the difference between a state worker and a welfare resipient? About 30 grand a year. They both TAKE money from other people and spend it as they wish with no regard for the people they steal from. Infact they cry that the wealthy people are not "paying their fair share"!?!?!?!?! Riiiiight, and my middle name is gullible. This is a simple act of BUYING VOTES! If it passes they will run on the line "the republicans want to take away your money!". What a joke the two party system has become.

So just stick your head back in the sand Milissa, the grown ups will handle your mess.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 3:10 pm EST

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From the gov't ML. I haven't heard anyone state that anything will be free, plus, it's not even feasible.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 2:38 pm EST

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Is Bettis Benny's girlfriend?
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 1:52 pm EST

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Ya sure Bettis wasnt in Detroit for the Obama- Bucks Handout?

Free Money
Free House
Free Food
Free Cars
Ohhhhfree everything, they just Loooooove "Obama, cuz Obama got a stash!

LOL

Liberals are hopeless
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 1:51 pm EST

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BETIS JUST DID.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 1:32 pm EST

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Wishful thinking I think Darin. I've not heard anyone say any of this will be free.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 12:11 pm EST

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"BUT we will have NO insurance premiums, NO copays, NO more health care worries!!!! So, it will be CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!!!! (no admin costs for billing, no profit for rich CEO's, etc, etc, etc)"

This is the lie that the left is perpetuating that single payer will be "free". Noting in life is free. In Canada's wonderful system citizens pay a monthly fee to be enrolled in the health care system ($100 To $200/month). The tax rates, both income tax and sales taxes are much higher than any state's tax. In Newfoundland the sales tax is 13% PLUS a 7% federal sales tax. People also purchase supplemental insurance through their employer, to cover prescriptions and for elevated healthcare coverage (single room instead of a ward room, less out of pocket expenses etc). So all the advantages that the left is touting don't really existing in a "single payer" system. Do some homework people, don't just believe what politicians and lobbyists tell you.
-- Posted by Darin on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:55 am EST

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AYK,,,You are right...Why pay for Health Insurance when I can get someone to do it ????? I need my money for other things,,,AYK...Remember that old saying
"Whats Mine is Mine,,and Whats your is Mine" I think that should be the new Vermont Motto.....
-- Posted by Angelo None on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:53 am EST

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This is getting old. The dems will fail, and you people will still cry about it even though you do not even want what is being proposed. It does nothing that it set out to do, and does not cut cost. If by reform you mean deform then support this bill and single payer. If you want to cost to really go down, get rid of this bill. It clearly does nothing to cut cost and only changes who is paying the cost.

This is nothing more than a "give me mine", "***** the rich" bill that many in the wealth envy crew have fell head over heels for. Its just sick.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:38 am EST

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Angelo_

guess What!
Has anyone thought of paying cash, writing a check or putting on the credit card to go to the doctors?

if u dont have insurance, then pay cash or make payments.

Very few people in Vermont have dental insurance, what do they do about that?

People take their cats and dogs to vet for annual check up and pay $100-$150 for exam......they have no problem paying that either do they........
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:29 am EST

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Yes, None None I was joking I do know Leahy..Sanders and Welch cannot
hit their BUTTS with Both Hands,,,
-- Posted by Angelo None on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:10 am EST

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Roses are red and violets are blue
lets kill health care
before Obama-Care kills you !!!
-- Posted by James Dahmer on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 11:02 am EST

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Angelo.None: I hope ,what you stated on this comment section was stated in Jest,i.e. Ask Sanders,Leahy or Welch to request of the Obama administration:"If you want to you could contact Leahy,,Welch,,,Sanders and they could try to get Congress to pass an amendment to the Constitution stating " Health Care is a Human Right"....... ". You have to be kidding. Senator Pat Leahy presently,is up for reelection this year 2010 as I understand the timing, and if he is to get reelected to the Senate, to do nothing, for the working Vermonter he would be well advised to develop a better strategy than the one you suggest/propose. You are aware of the fact, that Pres. Obama ,today , or as of lst night does not have his 60 Senatorial votes again to get the Health Care Albatross mess through the Senate. After March -April 2010 when the election does not send the Socialist and Lberal Democrats back to the Senate because Reed, Leahy and the liberal Candidate from Mass who is behind presently in the pols do not get relected Sanders is going to be all alone. Where is the 300 million$'s going to come from for no/low cost health Care Centers for indigent financially strapped low paid hard working Vermonters going to come from? Remember Senator Sanders bag is full of Xmas presents for Medicaid Indigents ,unemployed Medicaid recipients but nothing for Vermont low paid workers , Are you willing to give?
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 10:57 am EST

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Watercloset

If anyone applies to Catmount, and have had no Insurance, there is no waiting period...However if they have had Insurance, then there is a waiting period..

I have never heard of any Doctor or Hospital refusing to TREAT anyone, if they have no insurance .I have even heard that the Doctor or Hospital will write off the bill if the patient cannot pay.

As I posted before, Health Insurance is a Individual Responsibility,,not a RIGHT
If you want to you could contact Leahy,,Welch,,,Sanders and they could try to get Congress to pass an amendment to the Constitution stating " Health Care is a Human Right".......
-- Posted by Angelo None on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 10:06 am EST

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So you are the right to choose our own health care even if 1/6 of the people can't afford it? Nice. Very classy letter you wrote - quit whinning if you can't get good health care, it doesn't matter if you are sick, just deal with it. Even if you are working full time and don't have health care, it doesn't matter because heaven forbid we would hate to tax millionaires in this country.

Ask any doctor in this country: Universal Single Payer Health Care is the way to go.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 9:23 am EST

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Lori, I'm absolutely sympathetic to all hardworking Vermonters having a time making ends meet. My only issue is that the reform we are likely to get from Washington may not be the sort of reform we deserve. As Howard Dean said, start again.

My son, 23 years old, non-smoker, non drinker, avoids fast food and exercises daily was paying $507.24/month for being responsible. What a reward for leading a responsible lifestyle.
-- Posted by Ernest McDonald on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 8:40 am EST

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All I know is my husband and I work our butts off, we don't own plasma tv or a cell phone, and we pay $400.00 per month in premiums with a $5,000 deductible. I, for one, don't have $5,000 just lying around to pay when one of us has a trip to the hospital for any issue. My daughter gets hit in the face with a softball and the trip is a couple thousand dollars? I can't imagine that our taxes would be raised by that amount of money to offset the medical expenses. But...even if I was taxed $400. bucks a month, there would be no deductibles, in my understanding. I say we can't be any worse off then we are right now. And as for "choice" the only choice we have is to have the insurance through our employers, or not...Not eligible in this household for VHAP, Dr. Dynosaur...or any of those "programs" . Whats a family to do?
-- Posted by Lori Renaud on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 6:52 am EST

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Single payer: No premiums, no copays, no health care worries? Bullsh*t. Health care cost will continue to be paid no matter what system is adopted. Instead of paying a premium you will pay a tax. We will pay those taxes and by all accounts the system presently being considered in Washington will cost MORE. Nothing's free.

By the way why should any American pay more (or less) than any other American? Aren't we all Americans equally so with equal responsibilities? Although some folks have more there is usually a reason they do: They worked for it. Penalizing initiative, hard work and success doesn't make sense (penalizing greed on the other hand does). It's amazing how the "have nots" will always attempt to dictate to the "haves" what a "fair share" should be. Contributing little or nothing and expecting everything seems to be the American way.

I don't care for health insurance companies. I do beleive they are in need of serious reform.

I do believe our health care system can be better but what is likely coming from Washington isn't the answer. Senators and Congressmen being bought for votes. Hearings hled behind closed doors when the process was supposed to be transparent. A goverment dictating to you what you must buy or you will be penalized for not buying? We are likely to get what the insurance and pharmaceutical execs want versus any real reform.You get what you pay for and our elected officials have been paid well by the lobbyist in DC.

Howard Dean had it right when he suggested the entire reform effort in Washington should be scrapped in order to start again. For real reform we need to start again.
-- Posted by Ernest McDonald on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 6:25 am EST

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for the last 2 comments, all I can say is Dumbass twice. It is amazing how people can be so void of reason!
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 2:35 am EST

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"BUT we will have NO insurance premiums, NO copays, NO more health care worries!!!! So, it will be CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!!!! (no admin costs for billing, no profit for rich CEO's, etc, etc, etc)"

Right on, Sandra. Right on. Why does every single-payer system cost far less to run with all their citizens covered than ours?
-- Posted by Watercloset on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 12:14 am EST

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.We are in a State that offers V-Hap and Catamount, if they are not enrolled in one of these, it is called CHOICE....

Angelo None, you might be right in some cases, but in most cases it is something else that you have not included here: eligibility. These programs have eligibility restrictions. In catamount, for instance, you have to wait a year after enrolling to use the program if you have not had any insurance before it. Vhap has salary eligibility limits so low that it is almost impossible to meet them.

"Health Care is not FREE,,it is like Public School,,that is not free either."

When exactly did we say that health care was free? How did we say it? We have compared it to public school, to fire/police departments.

"Health Care is NOT a Human Right,,,Can't seem to find that in the Constitution.
It is a Individual Responsibility...."

What kind of right is it then? If you get cancer because of family genetics is that your "individual' responsibility? I also cannot find public education in the constitution either or fire or police departments. I cannot find an amendment strictly prohibiting alcohol in the original constitution, nor do I find an amendment giving women the right to vote. Does that alcohol and a woman's right to vote unconstitutional?

What is in the constitution is something generic about promoting the general welfare of the people. You could probably lump health care, public education, fire departments, etc. under that heading.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Sun, Jan 17, 2010, 12:09 am EST

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The taxpayers are going to pay which means the rich will pay more as they should. BUT we will have NO insurance premiums, NO copays, NO more health care worries!!!! So, it will be CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!!!! (no admin costs for billing, no profit for rich CEO's, etc, etc, etc)
-- Posted by Sandra Bettis on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 11:29 pm EST

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Hannah is right who is going to PAY for this ????
-- Posted by Angelo None on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 11:12 pm EST

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This is the most selfish letter that I've ever read. Do you know what single payer is? It means no more insurance companies out to make a profit! It means no more insurance premiums, no more copays, no more losing your insurance if you lose your job. It means everyone is covered and we will finally have caught up with the rest of the world!!!
-- Posted by Sandra Bettis on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 11:03 pm EST

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JA, none of your complaints will be solved by single payer. In fact they will probably just get worse. The only way single payer is going to save money is by RATIONING the very thing you are whining about. I lived in Canada with their single payer system and it sucks. Even in Alberta where they actually ahve money they are closing beds and are in constant cost cutting mode. My mom has worked in the hospitals there for 30 years, they are always closing beds, going on strike etc etc etc to save money. And that's in a "rich" province. It will be the same here. One of the ways the new Health Insurance reform is going to "save" money is by cutting medicare costs (rationing). This is just the first step. There are way more steps that the legislators and congress should make to save money before resorting to single payer. But there's too much other money and power involved for any of those people to make rational decisions.
BTW JA, talk about mean-spirited, look in the mirror!
-- Posted by Darin on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 9:52 pm EST

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There is hope on the horizon
http://www.bostonherald.com/
Scott Brown(R) is polling ahead in every poll against Martha Kookley(Lib-d)

Brown campaigned and went around the state meeeting people, Kookley went straight to Washington DC to meet the lobbyists

Massachusetts voters have seen the ways of the libs and empty promises and a boatload of taxes
--------------
Vermont might learn from this
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 7:19 pm EST

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Keep your powder dry and you humidor full because it's going to be a rough ride for anyone who supports Tax & Control Health Care.

"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
-- Posted by James Dahmer on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 6:29 pm EST

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This is Health Insurance by COERCION if you do not sign up you will be FINED..
Many of the people on Tuesday night said they didnot have Health Insurance..We are in a State that offers V-Hap and Catamount, if they are not enrolled in one of these, it is called CHOICE....Health Care is not FREE,,it is like Public School,,that is not free either...
Health Care is NOT a Human Right,,,Can't seem to find that in the Constitution.
It is a Individual Responsibility.....
-- Posted by Angelo None on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 5:45 pm EST

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Hannah: Don't pay any attention to J.A. Out of courtesy to you as a decent person I won't use my label for him that I have used before om him .Right J.A. J.A. critcizes evryone on teh T.A. bog an evrything is suspect . He state allof his comments in an acromonious uncivil manner. Just ignore him. He is crotchy old curmudgeon that needs a beahavior admustment.Hannah, for what ever his reasons are he naturally is uncivil and an authority on everything.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 3:54 pm EST

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Unfortunately, the lawmakers hear a few whiners and think they have to dismantle the whole system to accomodate the few people with issues.

THose people shouldve been writing to their State repts to begin with and the Reps shouldve handled the problems
Jim Jeffords (R) was very efficient and helped a lot fo people with those very problems.
Seems the caliber of elected Reps is poor and useless.
REMEMBER IN NOVEMBER
Vote out the bums
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 12:43 pm EST

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Hannah, you gotta be kiddin' me, girl. You like paying outrageous prices for your health insurance? Do you pay for a significant portion of your employees insurance also? Say, 80% or more? Don't you find that ridiculous that your employees have to rely on you for their health care protection? You like paying for alevel in this system that provides absolutely nothing but a closed door to the healthcare system? You agree that some $20K/year clerk SHOULD have the right to deny your claims even though you have paid-up coverage? Or that some overpaid RN who does no hands-on work with patients can prevent you from getting the medication you need at the orders of your doctor? Or the RN can boot you out of your hospital bed after a surgery? Or that you can be put into one of those endless telephone loops where you are transferred forever until you give up? You LIKE that?

You defend the health insurance giants (who do absolutely nothing for you but take your money) over the health care professionals (not Peter, btw) like those who testified at the State House recently?

Smarten up, Hannah. By the way, where and what is your "small business?" I want to help you out of business by not spending my money there. This "lazy" middle class Vermonter doesn't support short-sighted, mean-spirited people like you.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 12:21 pm EST

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And Mr. Magoo -

Arent you a computer jockey at Mary Hitchcock Hospital? Does working at a hospital really translate to "working in healthcare?" So the janitor is "in healthcare" too? Interesting.
-- Posted by Barry Moss on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 11:11 am EST

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Hmmmm, Hannah is a genius! The real issue isn't ensuring healthcare for the sick and suffering, the real issue is "how the heck are we going to pay for it." And Laziness! I should have known! The middle class and working poor are just lazy, not disadvantaged in a system that is set up in which they make too much money for Medicaid and too poor to be able to afford conventional health insurance with the accompanying deductables and copays. How could I have been so shortsighted? Hannah and her rational and intelligent viewpoint has certainly turned me around!
-- Posted by Barry Moss on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 10:58 am EST

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I work in health care. Most of my efforts involve trying to reduce costs. My work touches many aspects of health care delivery. I have not seen anything to indicate that how the money is routed has anything to do with the cost of health care - unless those paying ration the care. These are the factors that I, as an insider, see keeping care expensive: 1) Overprescribing of drugs, products and services. This can result from everything from a patient's insistence to a doctor's love for a drug, service or device, to a doctors fear of lawsuits and on and on. 2) Suppliers and manufacturers having undue influence over doctors and the purchasing process and a continuing process of planned obsolesence and unnecessary changes in products. The doctor/vendor axis can overrule good purchasing decisions that would aid patients and reduce costs. 3) Lack of attention to basic administrative details like workflow control and reducing paper handling in favor of electronic records. We are making progress, but I fear that the present debate over who pays is just a distraction from the real work that is so necessary to improving the situation.
-- Posted by Peter Magoon on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 10:54 am EST

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Hurrah! You've shown me the error of my ways! From now on, I will continue paying untold thousands of dollars into private health insurance knowing that if I face a health crisis the coverage might not be there for me, and I will urge others to do the same. I will quit my whining and take my medicine like a good little drone. It's much more important for me to support executive salaries, shareholders, and overhead than to "whine" about a broken system. Thank you for setting me on the path to goodness.
-- Posted by RutlandEquality None on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 10:32 am EST

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Hannah, there is already a single payer system (Medicare). Ask anyone over 65 if they would like to give up their Medicare coverage and go out and find one of the private ones that are not regulated by the government!! Medicare is cost effective and provides great care.
-- Posted by John LH on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 10:28 am EST

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AYK-I couldnt' have stated it more succintly! However,how do you stop a locust from eating all your crops? The tools we use to have and now that 13,000 UVM students can vote how can you stop this mess? Burlington passes an increase in their school budget :Where do you think those $s are gong to come from ? Local tax increase :Maybe! More than likey you and I, living in Vt-Gold towns will take it in the shorts with Act 68 tax increases: Mark my words. You have two(2) Socialist Senators in Washington, One Socialist House member in the House. A tax and spend locl legislaure.The only thing they are good for, is bringing in Gov $'s for Health Centers for the Vt financially disadvantage indigents,or $'s for the Medicaid users: Where are more jobs formall busionesses ,tax breaks incentives for small business and leave us property taxpayers alone? Let's have a property Taxpayers uprising! No more real Property tax increases. No more gimme's no more! These Socialist are like leeches you cannot get rid of them. You squash obne adn they regeneratef from the many pieces to a dozen. Ah ha~! the Lampreys of real propety taxpayers. Out of here.
-- Posted by None None on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 9:03 am EST

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Remember in Novemeber EVERYTHING these liberal weasles have done to us for the past year.
What legislation they think is most important and waste time on? AND which problems facing Vermont they consistently avoid.
JOBS TAXES and Lack of economy, these libs just dont get it.

JOBS first, if there wre ample jobs people would have their own money to buy insurance, food, heat etc. BUT to have ample jobs they have to knock off the taxing what they call the rich...and all the over zealous rules and regs and out of control enviromentalists.
Everything in Vermont is subsidized by a governemnt. Food stamps, heat fuel assistance, daycare, rent, good news garage free cars, 100% free Dr Dynosaur and medicaid, 3 free elctric bills via community action
. Then u wonder why the so-called poor all run around with cell phones and plasma TV's? Because the govt has freed up the money we working people have to spend, while they have ample cash on hand to buy junk things luxury items.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sat, Jan 16, 2010, 7:59 am EST

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