TimesArgus.com - We Are Vermont

Governor: Education must take hit



Gov. James Douglas delivers his inaugural address on Thursday at the Statehouse in Montpelier as Lt. Gov. Brian Dubie, right, listens.

Jeb Wallace-Brodeur/Times Argus

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By Louis Porter Vermont Press Bureau - Published: January 9, 2009

MONTPELIER — School spending has remained largely outside the control of Vermont's governors, the purview instead of local community school boards members. That will change if Gov. James Douglas succeeds in passage of sweeping changes he proposed Thursday, though a dense thicket of opposition lies ahead.

In his fourth inaugural address – which at times sounded more like a budget speech – the Republican governor said education funding must be cut like everything else in tough budget times.

"Now is not the time to spare sacred cows," the governor declared, proposing a series of changes that would limit per-pupil spending next fiscal year in schools across the state to the current year levels, and shift more education costs onto the state's Education Fund.

The limits on spending would not just apply to the portion of education funding that passes through state government's hands, but — unless local voters decided otherwise — would limit the local portion of school spending as well.

The proposal essentially does away with the current school funding system, and it immedi-ately drew objections from some in the Legislature.

For school districts with declining enrollment — which is occurring in many areas of the state — that would mean a drop in actual spending in schools that collectively have seen increases in spending, despite dropping numbers of students.

The governor proposes to use any savings for a property tax reduction of more than $40 million and to prevent some of the cuts in General Fund spending that will be required to fill a massive budget gap expected next year.

"In fact, the state will collect no more from residential taxpayers next year than it has this year, a welcome change for struggling Vermonters," the governor said.

The changes would last for one year, Douglas said, then he will offer an as-yet undrafted replacement for the complex statewide school financing system of Act 60, and its replacement Act 68.

That immediately drew the ire of legislative leaders, who said the governor should not propose tearing down the statewide school funding formula without proposing a long-term alternative.

"To simply criticize the status quo with flowery language without coming up with a plan is not constructively helping the debate," Senate President Pro Tem Peter Shumlin said. "Let's not destroy the system we have in the hope we can find a better one."

"Nobody ever likes a school funding formula," he added. "Nobody likes any of them because nobody likes to pay property taxes."

"We will not walk away from a system we have worked so hard to achieve that ensures that a student in Hardwick has the same access to education resources as a student of Stratton," Shumlin said.

In addition, some lawmakers said Douglas is not paying enough attention to the potential impact of a federal stimulus package expected to provide a significant amount of money to states, including Vermont.

Newly elected Speaker of the House Shap Smith of Morristown said Vermonters already have control over school spending, when they vote on school budgets.

"We have control on spending. It is going to Town Meeting every year," he said.

The proposal was also attacked by the state teachers' union.

"The governor's proposals will do great harm to the state's excellent public schools while at the same time burdening the state's property taxpayers with higher costs," Vermont-NEA President Angelo Dorta said in a statement. "For all of his talk of respect for educators and concern for Vermont's property taxpayers, his proposals for the coming budget year show a stunning lack of both."

At stake is a lot of money in a tough budget year. Vermont's spending of more than $4.3 billion in state and federal money can be divided very roughly into thirds. The General Fund has — and will continue to — see substantial declines during the current and next fiscal year due to the recession. Douglas argued that it's time for the Medicaid budget and schools, which comprise the other two thirds, to feel the pain as well.

But the governor's main focus was on school costs, an area of government spending he has tried to curtail in the past with limited success.

"The Education Fund has not shared any of the sacrifice seen by other areas of state government," Douglas said. "We need to reduce benefits and cut programs, primarily in human services, by at least $150 million out of a general fund of less than $1.2 billion. Meanwhile, funding K-12 education is expected to increase $63 million in the $1.4 billion Education Fund."

The proposed changes to education funding would likely result in layoffs of teachers or other school staff, administration officials acknowledged.

"Those are the times we are in," Secretary of Administration Neale Lunderville said.

But while the number of students has declined by 4,300 over the last decade the cost of kindergarten through 12th grade education has grown by 23 percent, Lunderville said.

"This is not sustainable," he said.

The state, like many across the country, is facing significant economic and fiscal problems. State revenues are declining rapidly, while needs for services are increasing.

There have been several rounds of cost cutting this year, but there remain about $46 million to be cut or raised to balance the fiscal year 2009 budget. When the fiscal year 2010 budget begins in July the state will face a $150 million or more shortfall.

The usual ways of getting out of a fiscal bind will not be enough this year, Douglas told House and Senate members gathered to hear his inaugural address.

"Given the magnitude of the growing budget gap, it would be shortsighted to only cut our way out of this problem," Douglas said. "If we nickel and dime services to keep the budget in balance, we will quickly reach a point where our programs are no longer able to serve their purposes."

That means turning to schools and reducing their spending — and the amount taken out of the General Fund for education and teachers' retirements, he said. About $40 million in retirement spending will be put onto the Education Fund, while the formula through which the transfer into the Education Fund is calculated would be changed — resulting in about $23 million less being taken out of the General Fund under Douglas' proposal.

Under that plan school districts would be able to vote to spend more in their next year's budgets than in the current year.

Putting the obligation to fund teachers' retirements onto the Education Fund and providing for additional spending to come out of local property taxes — while using some savings to aid the General Fund — essentially puts more pressure on local property taxes, Democratic lawmakers said.

Douglas, in turn, said that would "strengthen local control by holding school districts directly responsible for tax increases."

However, under the governor's plan, the entire "excess" spending at the local level would be on the backs of residential homeowners, not businesses or second homeowners. Secondly, that spending would not count under the state's current "income sensitivity" provision that results in many Vermonters paying their property tax bills based on their income instead of the value of their property.

Douglas also proposed to lawmakers that they reduce the income sensitivity threshold, which currently applies to those earning up to $90,000. The governor proposed reducing that to $75,000, which would bring in an additional $9 million.

The Act 60 education law was passed in reaction to a Vermont Supreme Court ruling that required more equitable school spending between districts with different tax bases. It is not entirely clear how Douglas' proposal will deal with that constitutional issue, although administration officials said if districts elected to spend more than the cap they would be limited to doing so to conform with the Brigham decision.

Rep. Janet Ancel, D-Calais, who has followed school funding issues in the Legislature, said she questions whether the governor's proposal will meet the requirements of fair school funding.

"If the idea is that towns could vote to spend whatever they want, it does raise some issues," Ancel said.








READER COMMENTS


The problem is with your argument that corporations aren't being taxed. So when you see in the headlines when gas is 4 dollars a gallon that oil comapanies are making the largest profit in human history - just think - none of that is going to the government while the little guy is paying 4 bucks a gallon and then getting hosed on income. Now thats just not right.

I think you have some nice ideas, but reality does not back them up. We already make all kinds of products, but the problem is almost every other nation in the world has limits on how much we can send them. To bring jobs back to America, we need to make them stop these policies on us, or enact similar legislation. If we do this, it will make sure that we are either selling more products overseas, or we are selling more american made goods at home.

I agree the tax system needs to be more fair. It needs to tax the huge corporations and the very wealthy, so they make up their fair share of the nations taxes.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Fri, Jan 16, 2009, 5:20 pm EST

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also it would attract jobs (no tax on wealth corps would flock to America), and since more goods would be made here, we would have more goods to trade, closing the deficit. And with these new jobs would be higher wages. so the Fairtax (not a consumption tax by definition but close) would bring jobs back to america, increase wages by default, shrink the trade deficit, and in turn increase revenue for the govt.
-- Posted by M. L. on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 4:56 pm EST

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Andrew.

The problem with taxing business is they do not actually pay any income tax. they simply include the tax burden in the price of the goods/services they produce.
example:
production cost: $10
over-head: $5
corp income tax: $3
Total cost to consumer: $18

Corperate tax is a dirtly little trick of the govt. Businesses hold no weath, only individual people do. Thus, the only way to to get money for govt is from individuals, Whether its the consumer, the employee, or the stake holders. The Company itself really holds no wealth.

Taxes have gone out of this world. I cant even tell you how much a year i actually pay in tax, and dont think many citizens could. you would have to tally up income tax, social security, medicare, medicaid, sales tax, gas tax, food tax, room board and meals tax, tolls, and numerous other taxes that are all hidden away out of plane view. And this is not by any accident, the govt is smart, and they know that unless they control how money is spent, then they have very little power in the whole scheme of things. just something to think about befor we go increasing and/or adding new taxes........
-- Posted by M. L. on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 4:43 pm EST

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I'll keep that in mind the next time I see others discussing the kids educational abilities for the same reasons.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 12:14 pm EST

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Mellisa,what is laughable is you taking a blog where people come to vent about issues in the news,and try to grade it like a high school s.a.t test.loosen up
-- Posted by bob on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 11:54 am EST

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Yeah I get it. We can comment and blog with out a care in the world, doesn't matter who's reading it, but then again, when kids come on here and do the same I have indeed seen them harassed for using bad verbage or bad spelling. But I guess we adults don't have to worry about those things, just the kids...do as I say, not as I do.

We lead by example, and if someone is reading these comments on education, it's almost laughable that we can't even spend enough time with correct spelling and grammar.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 11:39 am EST

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hey Melissa...... I know that I can speak only for me but.....this is a blog.. it isn't about creating perfect sentences.. it is a VERY informal place for people to talk about things.... I am college educated and work in an office all day and I can certainly write and ... but in an informal blog situation it just insn't needed.. get it? while I will agree with you that the actual education for kids shouldn't be taken away.. things do need to change at schools.. Taxpayers just don't have unlimited funds to hand over for some of the foolish things that schools think are important.
-- Posted by Dirk Diggler on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 9:03 pm EST

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Its an intresting idea - I am not that a tax on consumption is the best idea right about now.
I am not going to knock it completely right now, but the main thing I see that would result is it taxing heavily the middle class as they are the greatest consumer of goods, where the rich can keep their money as long as they are not spending it.

If you were to combine the two meathods then I would be intrested to see what kind of proposals people would come up with.

In the mean time to get the economy back on track:
Start having corporations pay federal taxes.
End stagnent wages.
Balance the budget.
Stop sending our jobs overseas.
End the trade deficits with foreign countries.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 8:58 pm EST

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i also suggest you read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand
-- Posted by M. L. on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 5:27 pm EST

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Andrew, the fix all to the entire economic situation, is the Fairtax. to answer your question. to learn more visit fairtax.org or pick up to book Fairtax by neal boortz and Sen. John Linder. It is the answer we have been looking for.
-- Posted by M. L. on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 5:26 pm EST

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But you see Andrew D. the issue is education, if we as adults can't even form proper sentences, how can we possibly have the audacity to judge how education is taught, or funded for that matter.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 4:48 pm EST

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/13/national/main838207.shtml
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 4:44 pm EST

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I only got through half of these comments and said OY!!!!

One - why is it a liberal or a conservative mind set at fault here? Last I checked both vote. It's OUR problem as a society in the choices we make as a WHOLE.

Two - The spelling and grammar is atrocious on the comments and we need to take more educational opportunities away from the kids? Boy, say it isn't so!!! If the parents at home are working with the kids like these discussions grammar and spelling on here is, we are in BIG BIG TROUBLE in the future.

Not that we aren't already, we are the lowest education nation in the world, but the richest, and the first place everyone looks for cuts is..... drum roll. EDUCATION

Are you kidding me?
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 4:41 pm EST

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Truth is that life is not fair, nor simple. Simpler laws. Simpler Lives.

Complete industries are built around every facet of every undertaking in our lives. The fact that we require no second thoughts as to why we have to participate in all requirements-all the time is perplexing. Schools are equally challenged, if not more so.

Only human nature is thwarted when we compound and confuse simple tasks by enacting laws that make tough personally challenging decisions mutable. The law of unintended consequences is ruining our livability.

Act 60 has to go. No Child left behind has to go. NEA has to give the people a chance.
-- Posted by Bob Cook on Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 8:25 am EST

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.

Old expression: "You have to hunt where the ducks are." Like it or not Education is the single biggest expenditure of tax dollars. Thus is has to be on the table. All the side arguments are entertaining and I enjoy reading them and adding to them. If the federal government doesn't come through with money for states, even education will have to take a hit. Property taxes are only a concept to some. To others, with a very high income, property taxes are irrelevant. People of modest means, who are also property owners, are stuck with the cost of education. To survive in VT it is best to be rich or on the generous public assistance program. If the economy continues to falter even the sacred educational cow will have to leak a little milk.

Back to the entertaining side comments: I know some folks who got a very good education in a one room school house. Yes, they went to college and did very well.

Some people go into teaching because it offers the most paid time off of any job in the world.

Mainstreaming doesn't work and it can be an unfair distraction to other kids.

It's like pulling teeth to get accurate, user friendly information about school cost or school performance.

"Special Education" - translation - unlimited spending area.

NCLB - hated by nearly everyone, needs to be repealed.

Act 60 - Killing the tax payers.

Vermonters who are not using the school system should pay less than people using the school system.

.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 7:55 pm EST

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None None - I completely agree, people around here should be judged not on how much time they are going to put into the grammar of the argument, to make it grammatically perfect, but instead they should be judged on what the argument itself says. The problem is that you started all of this non-sense about grammar with your post:

"Mr. Desmarais-
Your comments regarding education would be much more credible were you to use proper grammar"

See the problem? I agree with your last post. If people say something on here regardless of errers or omisions, as long as people can understand what they are trying to say, its not a big deal.

To everyone seeing this - there are far greater things to be worried about then whether someone has the time to run a post threw spell-check first.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 3:52 pm EST

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For all of you whom are judging or counting grammar errors on each and every post, get a life! It does not matter where you graduate from you are going to make mistakes in your grammar as well as if you were speaking face to face with someone. I graduated from Spaulding High School in the mid 80's, I have two degree's and I am working on my Master's at this moment. When you post you use slang and if you do not then you lie! If you say you never make a mistake, again you lie!
For the record, not all Vermonter's voted for Obama. If you have problem with my grammar and my education then you should see my salary, I am doing something right!
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 3:04 pm EST

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I have proof that the educational system in Vermont has indeed failed. You bunch of ignorant graduates elected Obama. The logic behind the vote? He promised (unspecified) change. Now we'll see what happens to us all as a result.

-- Posted by The Claw on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 1:34 pm EST


ya.. Bush did a great job... ha ha ha ha ha
-- Posted by Dirk Diggler on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 2:17 pm EST

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I have proof that the educational system in Vermont has indeed failed. You bunch of ignorant graduates elected Obama. The logic behind the vote? He promised (unspecified) change. Now we'll see what happens to us all as a result.
-- Posted by The Claw on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 1:34 pm EST

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Judging by most of the comments to this article, it seems like we should be recruiting better teachers and paying them more. Our education system needs to be improved. If not, we might end up turning out more of the ignorant buffoons posting below. By the looks of it, most of these complainers didn't take advantage of many educational opportunities growing up. You don't make a very persuasive argument against funding education when you can't spell.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 1:08 pm EST

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I see the whole school issue like this.. THere is no problem with paying the Teachers to teach.. but.. when you start adding in all of the Extra stuff in there. all the Money spent on sports, things such as Band, Drama and such activities, that is why the budget is way out of control. Why shouldn't parents be responsible to shoulder some of those costs if thier child wants to participate in that? If they are playing for Non-school town sports they have to pay for the kid to play, and pay for the transportation to and from.. why not have it cost to play? WHy not have the band and Drama stuff be funded by the participants... to me it seems like there are a lot of things that could be done differently and have a positive outcome and not have a major negative impact.
-- Posted by Dirk Diggler on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 12:25 pm EST

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I think we need to look at the system and admit it's broken. Then, once we agree to that, maybe then we can begin to look at what lead to the absolute failure we currently have. Teachers are paid too much! I don't care if a first year teacher has to struggle to pay the bills, guess what, I'm a 15 year professional in my current field and I'm still struggling to pay my bills. And give me a shorter work day, summers off, and five weeks paid vacation a year and I'll pick up an extra job to make the ends meet.

And don't get me started on full day kingergarten just so people won't have to pay for a babysitter - soon parents will be pushing for full day pre-K from the age of 1 year, that should really push our taxes up and help reduce their cost for day care!

Public education should be able educating, not babysitting. Then, there would be no need to pay outrageous salaries to teachers who complain they need to babysit so much they can't teach.
-- Posted by Mel Parker on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 10:19 am EST

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Actually Christina, there were a mixture of students and yes, some were mentally and developmentally challenged. The older, educationally advanced students helped those who needed it. The few (we are talking rural Vermont) that were physically challenged were kept at home and my family tells me that often times other students would stop by. Also, the teacher made home visits (imagine that!). My great aunt was a school teacher for decades; when she got her first job she was single and had to room with a local family. When a student was absent, she went to their home and helped with the work they missed. What a concept! Oh by the way, she certainly didn't make the money they make today. As a matter of fact, in the summer she worked at a store.
-- Posted by Emile Lacasse on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 8:34 am EST

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The sad truth is that state wide funding has not helped, and now the inflated values of our properties will demand a less (sic) equal funding process. The fact that money from one community is sent to other communities Gratis does not help those communities. Keeping up fiscally involves so many variables as to make it enticing to simply give them money. Laws and/or policies are enacted to protect the environment, or keep our streets safe, or often to fix some social injustice, like a furniture maker moving to paraguay for labor costs... It employs the law of unintended consequence.

I am of the mind, and it is only my opinion, that we are the beneficiaries of many layers of unintended consequences. Each law that has been heaped on an effort to help, by a desperately effort-ing legislation has brought us to this point. No one is to blame, and this is true. Assume all have tried to do their best.

School boards fight it out at meetings.
Administrations grind and work 80 hours a week satisfying all requirements.
Teachers hash it out in the trenches.
Parents want what will help their children.
Student-less homes deserve a reasonable Tax burden.

Regionalizing and consolidation will be difficult, and will be(or may not be) a needed change. Although the thought of another empty building in an already stressed micro economic zone will be seen as devastating to some. it will inevitably create economic zones of growth and development.

Here is the really mean part- If you live in a town where the employment prospects are diminished, and the school is not as "good" as you would want your child to enjoy, move. Just move. Do what a lot of people do, move to a town that has an economy, a town that will give your children the best chance of success. Live in the worst house in a nice neighborhood. Pay the ridiculous taxes of Norwich, Waitsfield, Manchester, and give your kids a chance. When they are done with school, you can then do what a lot of people choose to do... remove to a lower tax burden town. This is the unfortunate reality of rearing children.

It does offer other economic benefits. Like- you buy a run down house in an affluent town, you can fix it up over the course of your life there. When you resell it it is of significantly greater value (present circumstances are temporary regarding property value).

This has long been a practice that at best has been thwarted by current state school funding.

Point is that there are so many underlying points of issue when it comes to social efforts to fund schools. Not sure if this helps, but I hope it it gives some idea as to not create angrier partisanship. Wishing something to be right and fair often leads to a significantly more complex process. A process that is not easily manipulated by its intended audience.
Move to a town that can support your children's efforts. A place that has economic opportunity. The truth is - This is why VT has declining student levels. People are voting with their feet already.
-- Posted by Bob Cook on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 8:32 am EST

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Kathy Ross: "Many of the older members of family were educated in a one room school house with one teacher, mixed grade levels, no paraeducators, no administrators, no counselors, and are more thoroughly educated than the majority of students today."

And also no students with physical, mental or developmental disabilities. I think you forgot that part. I remember a neighbor who was outraged when "they" were let into Mathewson School in the mid-80s, even when they were taught in separate classrooms. Seems archaic now, doesn't it?

M.L.: "look at the difference between st mikes in montpelier and msms. performance of st. mikes is far better that middles schoolers @ the government schools, and they operate on 2/3 of what the lib factory runs on."

The charging of tuition excludes the poor and many associated social problems. "Private" means you can eject "problem" students, too. Public schools have to teach just about everybody, except for the very few who are expelled.

In 1986, my summer job included setting up the transcript files of the incoming freshmen at Spaulding High School for the guidance counselors. I observed that the standardized test scores showed very little variation among students from St. Monica's. But is that because the student body from the Catholic school was more homogeneous to begin in its ability and drive to learn, or that the teachers at St. Monica's were of a higher caliber than public school teachers in preparing students for the tests more evenly?
-- Posted by Christina Colombe on Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 1:20 am EST

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After carefully reading this amusing banter, I feel I must make a comment and ask a question or two.

I feel that I need to point out first and foremost that many of the people referred to as " glorified hall monitors" are medicaid funded through department of disability waivers. These waivers bring money to the school district, not leech from it.

My first question is, why do schools find it prudent to cut staff each year, but then ask for more money. What are they doing with the money left from the now vacant posts that leaves them needing more?

My second question is redundant since it is too late to remedy the problem. Where did you all attend school? I did not read a comment without spelling or grammar errors, and the number of sentence fragments is staggering. I hope you do not all say Vermont, as it would convince me that no matter how little or how much is spent in this state, one may never have a truly quality education.
-- Posted by heather slayton on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 7:26 pm EST

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I think that there are two None None comments, I have not commented on grammar, you did! Now back to the issue, how many phone calls to the State Department do you think it takes to get a questioned answered? About as many as the amount of dollars every home owner or land owner pays in taxes for the school system.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 2:38 pm EST

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I am not arguing the budget or where the money is going - right now. What I am saying is you have repeatedly commented on my bad grammar, and mocked my arguments based on nothing else but this. If you can't do what you say, don't say it.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 1:27 pm EST

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I am pretty sure that I was not addressing the issues of grammer in schools but the school budget and where our money is going, @@@@@@! If grammar is your only issue then you must not pay taxes!!! Wake up and smell the audit, we sure do need one as well as yourself.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 9:19 am EST

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None None - your comments regarding grammar would be credible if you used proper grammar. Don't point on grammar mistakes when you are making ones in your last post like:

"so why am I paying 2500 hundred dollars a year for school taxes?"

"Last but not least, school enrollment has been declining and the school budgets are increasing who are we employing her?"

Stick to the arguments, unless you want to be a perfectionist yourself.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 8:34 am EST

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When homeowners receive their tax bills each year, the municipal price is what they should be paying but along with the municipal price there is a school tax which drives 90% of the actual municipal cost. I for one do not have a child in the Vermont school system and never have but I sure do pay for a lot of kids to go to school. I do on occasion visit different schools to see what I am paying for and this is what I have found:

When your town or city budget list a price for the cost of books, look around does your child come home with a book or a print out of a page in a book! I they come home with a print out but 300 books were ordered for the school year where are the books? My suggestion is if I am going to pay for a book that is going to educate a student then the student should bring the book home if not then purchase one book for each class of that grade and make copies.

Next we have a lot of people walking around the schools with name badges but no actual job, go figure sounds and looks like the Vermont State Department, ever try to get an answer to a question without being patched to 20 people and still not get an answer, try it sometime and you will wonder where your tax money is going.

Last but not least, school enrollment has been declining and the school budgets are increasing who are we employing her? We have allowed the teachers union to bully us for more money when the parent and student seem to be doing more of the teaching than the teacher. It also appears that a teacher is nothing more than an over payed babysitter and all of the work is sent home for the student to do at night, at least 2-3 hours each night of homework. Maybe we should pay the student rather than the teacher.

Our lottery does not seem to be paying for much in the way of education so why have it, maybe we should sue the state for false advertisement of what the lottery money is actually going to and for. I for one have read an article recently saying that the Vermont Education Fund will be in excess of 20 million dollars in the next year. so why am I paying 2500 hundred dollars a year for school taxes?
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 8:24 am EST

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"Do you really think teachers unions are really trying to block, extremely educated and qualified people from teaching?" Yes, the NEA has made it plain that they want to keep thousands of educated and capable parents from educating their own children. From the Vermont NEA Leadership Handbook Item C-19 "Vermont-NEA believes that all children must have an equitable and quality education. The Association also believes that home schooling programs based on parental choice cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience."
-- Posted by Patrick Cashman on Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 1:05 am EST

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Mr. Desmarais-
Your comments regarding education would be much more credible were you to use proper grammar.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 10:48 pm EST

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Not even trying anymore huh? You are actually making my points sometimes!

When I call you out on saying that the colonies were not founded for freedom to practice whatever religion, you change the subject.

You don't answer questions I pose about what to do about the 7% of the unemployed in the USA right now. Or when I ask if you really think that teachers unions are preventing professionals from teaching, or how you would get teachers to teach 12 months a year.

What makes you think they are bad at teachings - gut feelings? Hatred of Unions? If some teachers wanted to be at public school why aren't they? Is it because people can't afford private schools? The vast majority of people can't afford private schools or colleges right now, so teachers can't go into private schools Or are you just advocating high school education for the top 10% of Americans?

Would you deal with a bunch of hormonal teenagers in grades 9-12, working there hours for $40,000 a year as a maximum pay? I don't think so, and I don't think anyone else would either. You are either saying that teachers should be anyone who will work for the least amount of money, or you should think before you speak.

You think colleges are good huh? What makes them good, the lack of government involved? Why do you think they call the vast majority of colleges state universities/colleges then? If you want high schools the same way: see two paragraphs above.

"economics, business, math, JROTC, criminal justice"
- all conservative not many libs in jrotc or law enforcement. any other brilliant points andy?"

I pointed out these departments and professions after you said: "They mandate that you must be liberalified before setting foot in a class room. there should hardley be a whole degree dedicated to teaching"

So you are not only concluding that not all teachers are liberal, but also conseding my point! Thanks a bunch.

Its time for you to put up or shut up. Answer the question I gave you in response to the remarks you made. Do not change the subject, but feel free to make my points again. If you can not answer what would happen as a response of things you said, then you are just a blow-hard and should not post online.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 4:34 pm EST

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oh andy....

"The Northern colonies were founded by people who were not trying for the freedom to practice there own religion, but who could not suppress the other religions out there"
- and 9/11 was an inside job too.......?

"Do you think that they get 3 months off a year ... because school is out in the summer?"
They dont really make $xx,xxx/year they make $xx,xxx/9 months. the point is, they signed up to be a teacher, nobody made them. they new what the average income was they could expect in return for their "degree". if they were smart, they would have gone into private schools where teachers can earn way more, oh wait though, private schools would not hire most teachers that currently work in govt schools because they are bad at teaching..... they only can hire the best in order to keep enrollment up. they cant just take more money when they see fit.

"40,000 dollars a year should be the max on public servants huh?"
-damn straight, in todays economy anyway. Unless there is a damn good reason, ie doctorate in space physics or quantum physics or other REAL degrees besides just "science teacher" who teaches global warming as fact and not theory.

"Teachers must be liberalified to teach? Interesting. My professor...."
-professors work at universities or "higher education" not public schools. They are the good "teachers" the ones who save the government school teachers butts. that is why ther is such an emphasis on going to college now. They dont teach you anything other then how to suck the govt *** in govt schools now.

"economics, business, math, JROTC, criminal justice"
- all conservative not many libs in jrotc or law enforcement. any other brilliant points andy?

"M. L. you are a joke. You make gross generalizations - granted we are all guilty of it - but its the norm and the standard with you. Before responding think - really think about what you are saying, what the consequences will be, and if its a good idea"
- im gunna go ahead and call the kettle black.........

liberalism is a mental disorder.
-- Posted by M. L. on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 4:02 pm EST

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Old Man, are you against schools, or education in general? Is there anything you like about our education system right now? If not what do you think we should do? Go back to one room school houses? I have seen you post many things you are against: taxes, the government, dept. of edu., teachers, unions, sports in schools.
Tell me what are you for?

M. L. you are boarder line absurd. I can tell why you don't like schools now: you failed history class! The Northern colonies were founded by people who were not trying for the freedom to practice there own religion, but who could not suppress the other religions out there - that is what the news doesn't say but the history books should. So if Conservatives are pro-hard work, and Liberals are lazy what do you plan on doing for the 7% and growing of unemployed, and those with out a house? Tell them that life sucks, and its not your problem? I will love your answer i am sure.

Do you really think teachers unions are really trying to block, extremely educated and qualified people from teaching? Or do you think it was the government who passed the law saying that you need to have a degree in that field?

Do you think that they get 3 months off a year ... because school is out in the summer? If you want to propose to have school all year round be my guest ... see how the public likes it, not having summer break with there kids.

40,000 dollars a year should be the max on public servants huh? Well please tell me the incentives you are going to give to get good people in the government/ congress/state department? What person would want a job who is smart educated but can only top out at 40 grand a year? Do you want no government, or just one filled with people who are not qualified for the job? Your plan is on the right track.

Teachers must be liberalified to teach? Interesting. My professor who preached to me the value of milton friedman this semester was liberalified huh? Same guy who said that unless you have a completely free market system the world will collapse ... he is so far left. Lots of people out there in economics, business, math, JROTC, criminal justice just like him - rabid liberal professors and teachers.

M. L. you are a joke. You make gross generalizations - granted we are all guilty of it - but its the norm and the standard with you. Before responding think - really think about what you are saying, what the consequences will be, and if its a good idea.
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 2:48 pm EST

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ANDREW,

TOday, a teching degree is hardly a degree. Do you wonder why a person with a doctorate in physics cannot teach physics at a government high school???? I'll tell u, because of the LIBERAL TEACHERS UNIONS. They mandate that you must be liberalified before setting foot in a class room. there should hardley be a whole degree dedicated to teaching. It doesnt do any good, look at the test scores. Nobody in the govenment sector should make above $40,000 ever. THEY GET THREE MONTHS OFF A YEAR. ANd they need to be held to standard that leave no room for them to cheat. if you fail to increase your performance, you should be fired. thats how it works in the real worl. No excuses, you have a job if you dont do it, there is the door.

The conservitive values this country was founded on were,
self reliance
self responsibility
hard work
freedome to choose your religion
minimal govt, are just a few.

im pretty sure America was no founded by, lazy, whining, dumb, reliant, cry babies who cant even name the controlling party in congress......

Liberalism is a mental disorder.
-- Posted by M. L. on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 2:02 pm EST

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.

First Name : You are correct. We need to eliminate REQUIRED mandates that make schools do all kinds of stupid expensive things.

Ronald Reagan was right when he tried to eliminate the FEDERAL Dept. of Ed. What a waste that is.

.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 12:54 pm EST

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There are many flaws in the Act 60 program. I know someone that inherited a stock portfolio worth $600k (this was 2 years ago!) and he lived off this by selling enough stock each year to pocket $50 to $60k. Some were sold at a gain and some were sold at a loss, but that's all he had to report on his income tax return, gains and losses, and one year he received a property tax rebate check that darn near covered all his $3600 tax bill. This person could well afford to pay his property taxes. Act 60/68 needs to be fixed, it's ridiculous.
-- Posted by Veronica Sunshine on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 12:26 am EST

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"You also think that this country was founded on conservative values ... really which ones? Freedom of speech, Religion? They were the same values as started the French Revolution .... how conservative are they?"

Andrew, nice one, thanks. These are excessively liberal principles, back then as they are now. In many parts of the world, in many parts of the country, they still are very liberal principles. Try exercising your right to freedom of speech on the job. See how conservatives meet that one:) Conservatives take liberal principles and defend them as conservative.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 12:14 am EST

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If we are cutting the school budgets we also need to cut the federally REQUIRED mandates for testing, one-on-one aides etc.

I see alot of ideas on how to cut costs but to make a real difference costly mandates need to be trimmed as well.
-- Posted by First Name on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 11:46 pm EST

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.

Andrew lad, the answer to your question is : ALL OF THEM. I would have a pay to play policy for all school sports. Raise money through private donations. I would eliminate property tax money to ALL SPORTS. Other parts of the country have had to do this. No problem. We're way past that................

.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 11:03 pm EST

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If all of you who posted on here, can't afford to pay the property taxes, then surely you can not pay for sports that are not part of the education system. The education of students is far more important than just sports for the few, that they could pay for themselves if they really want to have a team. I will be waiting to see which ones you want cut.

Jason Boyd has it right on - why are there so many federal and state mandates that force the school board to spend all kinds of money on things that neither of them fund.

For those of you gripping about why the teachers salary can be high there is your reason: because you are required to have college degrees in your field to be teaching at an 8th grade level. This doesn't make since to me, we had a ex-IBM employee teaching us math in 8th grade, and he did a great job, if it worked for us, why can't people do that all around the state?



M. L. you sound very confused. It sounds to me like you think that anyone with a college degree, or that is rich is liberal. If you look at the numbers, nationally both groups are usually economic conservatives, but yes socially liberal ... but do you really think teachers starting off are rich? You also think that this country was founded on conservative values ... really which ones? Freedom of speech, Religion? They were the same values as started the French Revolution .... how conservative are they?
-- Posted by andrew desmarais on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 3:59 pm EST

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In our local Elementary School, there is a Guidance Counselor who makes $52,980, a year, here in the NEK. Why does a Elementary School need a Guidance Counselor, for such a high cost??
-- Posted by Catherine R on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 3:56 pm EST

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RIGHT ON OLD MAN.

Not to mention that most teachers do not even live in the same tax disrict that they work in. When I went to MHS i can remember all of three teachers who actually lived in Montpelier....
-- Posted by M. L. on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 2:18 pm EST

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.

The current system is broken. I DO attend school board meetings in my town and make my voice heard. I am in the minority when it comes to school spending because I have advocated for LESS SPENDING. The current education system is killing the property owner of modest income. More than 10% of my GROSS household income goes to property taxes. I cannot afford to pay for para-educators, special ed placements, 0%-10% premium share for teacher health insurance or classes with less than 15 students. Maybe they are the best ideas in the world, but,,, I can't afford them. I will lose my home if I have to keep paying more and more. I don't earn any more money.

The smug, cost be damned attitude of some local teachers doesn't generate any sympathy for their cause. Some(not all) educators have this entitlement mentality that they deserve what they want, whatever the cost to property owners. It sickens me to see them(not all) whine about Fall, and having to go back to work, after having the entire summer off.

If there's a war on the middle class, the Trojan Horse has been public schools.


.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 2:08 pm EST

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DB NONE,

You must be the from the factories....

You have it backwards. This country was founded on conservitive principles, period. We need to get back to the hard working mentality of the past. If you want your child taught conservitive valuse today, you have to pay both tax on youyr local school and then tuition for a private one as well. Vouchars only work when all schools are brought into the mix, not just government ones.

ps, liberals should b e forced to move to canada.
-- Posted by M. L. on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 11:59 am EST

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In my observation at my school is that there are a lot of aids (paraeducators, PLEASE!) walking around with no purpose. I do believe that my small school could eliminate some of these glorified hall monitors and not miss them. There are only a few that are true paraeducators who do a super job assisting in the classroom. There are some who are "one on one" aids to children who simply need more discipline at home. And as far as the "main-streaming" of mentally handicap children, we have Jim Jeffords to thank for that...."Thanks, Jim!"
-- Posted by Open Minded Citizen on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 10:23 am EST

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Wow! Craig, you seem like one unhappy camper. Individuals have all sorts of choices to make in life --- sounds like maybe you've made some poor ones. I'm sure you're fun at parent/teacher conferences!

There are some teachers (most likely administrators) making that kind of money. I'm sure that the numbers you're throwing around isn't even close to the state average. I'd even bet that a first year teacher has a hard time making ends meet: paying student loans, housing (if they're not living at home), car payment, etc.

Believe it or not .... you have school choice. If you don't like your schools, move to a different town (maybe a different state) that meets your child's needs.

If you have issues with the education that you're local school provides go talk to the principal or one of your school directors. Better yet .... run for a school board position.

Best of luck.
-- Posted by DB None on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:48 am EST

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Since when has evolution ever been a "conservative value"?... That's really pretty funny...
-- Posted by owlcat on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 9:27 am EST

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Perhaps you should move to Kansas, where teachers make $32,000/yr. and teach evolution and plenty of conservative values.
-- Posted by J W on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 7:19 am EST

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agree with m.l. and charles, current system is broke and so are the taxpayers who have to fund it. every year i buy the majority of my childs school supplies and see no education. I see a libral brain wash but no balanced teaching and for this i must pay taxes i cant affored...... imean we pay each teacher 50,60,$70000 a year or more and give 2and 1/2 months vacation, health care, retirement,etc.and yet we still see no results and they get all ****** off when we set mandates to be able to give our kids a fighting chance in the world. sometimes i think kids in third world countries recieve better education for alot less money!!!!!!! free ride is over and our votes count...
-- Posted by craig cane on Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 6:12 am EST

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First off, they have not been "public schools" for a while. Perhaps a more fitting title would be Liberal Factory or Government Schools as they only teach through the eyes of a liberal. As Neal Boortz has said, "teachers unions pose a greater threat to this country that al queda". He could not be more right. It is the unions that cause the cost of education to increase year after year, with less enrollments. Same reason why the American auto workers cant get their cost down eithor. The schools need to be swept clean of librarians who make $50,000 a year, we need to mop up math teachers making $60,000 a year. look it up next time the annual report comes out. the numbers are offencive to anyone who is still in the right mind. The schools could be doing the same as they are no with half the resources. look at the difference between st mikes in montpelier and msms. performance of st. mikes is far better that middles schoolers @ the government schools, and they operate on 2/3 of what the lib factory runs on.

The point is, liberals what the population to be as little educated as possible. thats the only way they stay in power. smart rational people will never vote for a democrat..............

liberalism is a mental disorder.
-- Posted by M. L. on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 5:18 pm EST

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Okay, combining school districts and/or closing schools ... which town wants to close their local elementary school first? Any volunteers?

Why didn't Douglas pitch these ideas last fall before the elections? Do you think he just came up with his new proposals since election day?

I think Douglas has a uphill battle. He's placing too much blame on school boards and how we fund our schools for our economic mess we're in now. I don't think we'll see many school boards coming in with increases over 1.5% ... school directors are pretty reasonable people as a whole.
-- Posted by David Bain on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 4:55 pm EST

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Watercloset -- what drugs are you on?

Kathy, you missed the satire. A good argument for education beyond the one-room school house, but I suspect that if health care, pension, child care, etc were reformed to actually make sense, school budgets will go down dramatically.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 3:26 pm EST

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I don't pretend to be an expert on No Child Left Behind but from what I do understand it seems that the act says if you (the school) want federal funds, then your students must perform at a certain level...and that level goes up each year. This SOUNDS like a terrific idea. But how do you get a 13 year old kid with autism or some other impairment who can barely tie his shoes to read/write/and do math at an 8th-grade level??? That is an exaggeration, I know but I think/hope you get my point. Not EVERY kid in school is going to perform at grade level. And it is not necessarily the school's fault or the teacher's fault.

Think also of the scenario where a school meets its objectives one year but then the bar is raised yet again. How do they meet those new test scores? They have to spend more and more time helping the worst-performing children. Which again sounds great. But it costs money. I imagine that is why more and more teachers and teahcer-assistants have been hired in VT even while student enrollment has dropped.

I will say again, I do think something must be done to control school spending. Getting health care costs under control and consolidating districts might be a start. Negotiating contracts with staff and teachers may also be a possibility but will be very VERY difficult unless you are willing to have them strike. I think by funding the NCLB act federally would also help substantially.
-- Posted by Jason Boyd on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 2:11 pm EST

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Mr. Boyd,

I understand the politics of No Child Left Behind. But, all I ever hear is generalities about NCLB and other mandates. I'd like to better understand specifics. Are they instrusive mandates that just lack federal funding? Or, would they be intrusive even with adequate funding? Or, maybe there's a compromise somewhere in between. Unfortunately, all we ever hear about is "unfunded mandates". But, when you ask for specifics (even from teachers or school board members) they tend to get defensive and adopt a "you couldn't possibly understand" attitude.

All I'm after is more specificity.
-- Posted by Jeff Andrews on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 1:46 pm EST

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Watercloset -- what drugs are you on? You blame republicans for not caring about education then you'll turn around and blast them for creating No Child Left Behind. If schools were teaching instead of babysitting, providing day care services, busing 3 year olds to preschool, busing students to peace rallies, we wouldn't need No Child Left Behind because it wouldn't be necessary. Many of the older members of family were educated in a one room school house with one teacher, mixed grade levels, no paraeducators, no administrators, no counselors, and are more thoroughly educated than the majority of students today. It's time that parents went back to being parents. I agree with GoJi, we must do something to rein in the spending on education. In any other business, if the demand was done, people would be layed off. Furthermore, why do teachers/educators get their insurance premiums paid for or at a maximum have to pay 20% when the rest of us working stiffs have to pay the full amount. I don't know of any other job that a person works for 185-190 days per year, has at least one day off per month with pay and makes a minimum of $30,000. Just try to get a meeting with a teacher before school or after ; it's like asking them to give up their first born. They can't come in before 8:00 a.m. and certainly will not stay past 2:40 p.m. They are like the legislature = Public Servants = the Public Serves Them!
-- Posted by Emile Lacasse on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 1:41 pm EST

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Mr. Andrews - By unfunded mandates, I was referring to "No Child Left Behind". The objectives of this program are commendable but the complaint all along from many has been that no funding was ever granted to enact it.

To All - Of course, if you are truly concerned with the out of control school spending and want to DO something about it rather than just complain about it, the best thing you can do is to attend your local school board meetings and perhaps even run for election to the school board.
-- Posted by Jason Boyd on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 1:19 pm EST

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Where can one go to find a listing of all the costly state and federal mandates that are always being talked about? Is there a site that lists them specifically?
-- Posted by Jeff Andrews on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 12:51 pm EST

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I do think we need to consolidate school districts. I think it makes the most sense to do it by County. This should help save some money.

However, I think the real problem here is out of the control of most school districts. The federal gov't in recent years has added several new mandates but provided no additional funding. This has increased the need for additional spending in areas such as special education. Until those mandates are funded properly, local school districts will have their hands tied. They can't not ignore the mandates placed upon them, nor can they just cut teacher pay, teacher retirement costs, health care costs, etc. And yet, SOMETHING must be done.

Perhaps a state-wide teacher contract might also help?
-- Posted by Jason Boyd on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 12:25 pm EST

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We ought to just close down the schools alltogether. Think of the money that you would save. Who in the hell cares about education anyway, least of all the Republicans. Just apprentice the kids out to a butcher or a carpenter, or some such trade as was done in past centuries. Just keep them stupid so that they will believe and save all that money which goes to such things as the incredible cost of our rising health care costs and predicament.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 12:04 pm EST

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We ought to just close down the schools alltogether. Think of the money that you would save. Who in the hell cares about education anyway, least of all the Republicans. Just apprentice the kids out to a butcher or a carpenter, or some such trade as was done in past centuries. Just keep them stupid so that they will believe and save all that money which goes to such things as the incredible cost of our rising health care.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 12:02 pm EST

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I have to agree with AJ on this one. There is no way with act 60, 68, or any other model similar to those that we can continue to support a school system where the student count is dwindling and yet the costs associated with continue to skyrocket. Something must be done. Now I'm not a big supporter of Gov. Douglas but at least he is bringing something to the table to start a discussion. Times are a changing. Lets not wait till its really too late to do anything about it!
-- Posted by Dave Erwin on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 11:19 am EST

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The current system is absurd. The continued refusal of Vermonters to see the logical step of combining school districts that have few students per graduating class is indicative of the overwhelming sense of entitlement that permeates the state. Vermonters scream about the amount they pay for property tax yet they refuse to take the steps necessary to change the situation. Vermonters continue to expect to do things the same way they have done things for 100 years, heaven forbid anything change. Once again ignorance and stubbornness carry the day!!
-- Posted by AJ None on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 8:21 am EST

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It's time the Howard Dean and Co. legacy's that have put this State in the hole get thrown into the hole and buried. What happened to the GOP of the past, you didn't have these fiscal problems every darn year.

I'm glad the Inaurgural address was about the Budget not a bunch of Powdered Sugar spinkled like Ferry Dust.
-- Posted by charles on Fri, Jan 9, 2009, 7:25 am EST

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