TimesArgus.com - We Are Vermont

Pledge of Allegiance flap divides Vt. town



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By JOHN CURRAN The Associated Press - Published: November 16, 2008

WOODBURY — A controversy at Woodbury Elementary School took another turn Friday, as the school community gathered in the foyer for a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance – for those who chose to.

Efforts to restore the daily recitation have erupted into a bitter dispute, with school officials blocking the exercise from classrooms amid concerns that it holds nonparticipating children up to scorn.

Supporters say the classroom is the place for it, and the disagreement has fueled an increasingly acrimonious debate.

"The whole thing is tearing our community apart," said Heather Lanphear, 39, the mother of a first-grade student.

On Friday, just before 8 a.m., principal Michaela Martin herded all the school's students — and a handful of adults — into a cramped foyer that adjoins the first-floor classrooms and told sixth-grader Nathan Gilbert, 12, to lead them in the pledge.

Most recited it; some didn't.

Afterward, 10 adults streamed down the steps and outside, forming a circle around school board Chairwoman Retta Dunlap for a heated discussion in which they pressed for an explanation of why it couldn't be said in the classrooms.

The format is up to teachers, not administrators or parents, Dunlap said.

"The children will get used to it, and they'll know what's expected of them," she said.

In an interview, Martin said the point of having the whole school gather for the pledge was to protect children who don't participate in it.

"If you're in a classroom with 15 students and you choose not to say the Pledge, it's much more obvious than a group setting. When they're saying it in a group of 55, it's may not be so obvious. We don't want to isolate children," she said.

Unlike other pledge controversies, this one centers on how and where schoolchildren say it, not whether they should be allowed to.

In 1943, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that schoolchildren can opt out of reciting the pledge for religious reasons.

Sixty-one years later, the court said a California father couldn't challenge the Pledge of Allegiance, reversing a lower-court decision saying teacher-led pledge recitals in public schools were unconstitutional. That case involved an atheist who didn't want his third-grader to have to listen to the phrase "under God."

But it didn't rule on the constitutionality of compulsory recitation.

The brouhaha in the Vermont school began in September, when parent Ted Tedesco began circulating petitions calling for its return as a daily practice in the 19th-century schoolhouse, which has 55 children in grades kindergarten through six.

School officials agreed to resume the pledge as a daily exercise, but not in the classroom.

"We don't want to isolate children every day in their own classroom, or make them feel they're different," said Martin.

Instead, starting last week, a sixth- grade student was assigned to go around to the four classrooms before classes started, gathering up anyone who wanted to say it and then walking them up creaky wooden steps to a second-floor gymnasium, where he led them in the pledge.

About half the students chose to participate, according to Martin.

Tedesco, 55, a retired U.S. Marine Corps major, and others who signed his petitions didn't like that solution, calling it disruptive to routine and inappropriate because it put young children in the position of having to decide between pre-class play time and leaving the classroom to say the Pledge.

"Saying the Pledge in the classroom is legal, convenient and traditional," said Tedesco. "Asking kindergarten through sixth graders who want to say the pledge to leave their classrooms to do so is neither convenient nor traditional."

Martin and Dunlap defended the practice, saying it restored the pledge to the school as requested, preserved the rights of students who — for political or religious reasons — didn't want to participate and gave others the opportunity to pledge their allegiance.

"I was happy to have it upstairs. I think it's important that all the kids share in it together," said parent Ellen Demers, 42.

Tedesco pulled his two children out of the school last week, but he says the reason was the school's declining scores on standardized tests, not the pledge issue. He plans to continue lobbying for classroom recitation.

"There's no way a heckler's veto should abridge the constitutional rights of the majority," he said.








READER COMMENTS


Sorry Jest it apparently was misunderstood by me, thanks for the clarification.

I do understand that some were just putting on a show, but on the positive side, they were displaying patriotism, regardless of their intent. Whether it be for their own silly gratification that they LOOKED more patriotic flying flags off their big ol' trucks or cars. We had a national mind set that america was standing as one for the first time in my life. Sucks it took a tremendous tragedy and infiltration of our country for people to finally realize we are all one, but it happened, and I'm proud of all Americans during that time.

Take care!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Nov 24, 2008, 10:55 am EST

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Well, BSA, not everyone has such good internet connections as to be able to download videos and other large files but you made me curious enough to do a little looking around to see if I could find what questions were asked in Zeigler's (another right-winger) poll conducted by Zogby (who admitted that the poll was somewhat unfair and he wouldn't do it that way again and would at least require that supporters of the other party be polled for comparison).

This is a link to a Wall Street Journal (no leftie newpaper there, huh?) article about the infamous poll: http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/zogbys-misleading-poll-of-obama-voters-459/

BTW, the questions and tables of results can be found at the Zogby website. I wouldn't have done very well with some of those questions either and I kept up with the campaign from the beginning to the end. Of course, many of the questions had nothing to do with the recent campaign but there you go ... Then again, I don't dwell on the supermarket tabloids and I only listen to people like El Rushbo for short periods of time when I need a laugh from the outrageous things he says and from the toadying acolytes who call him up to faun all over him before he ignores them and goes on yet another rant, leaving the toady sucking dead air. And, no I cannot listen to that idiot Hannity. He's not nearly as funny as Rush Limpbag and all the over-the-top descriptions he has of himself.

Anyway, Melissa, I don't disagree with you that America had a very brief time of coming together immediately after 9/11 and that I was just as gratified as you to see people coming together in a time of crisis and national mourning. What ticked me off was the super-patriots who came out of the woodwork, tying Old Glory to everything that moved and generally destroying the flag and showing it disrespect in the process. That's what ticked me off. I fly a flag from Flag Day until Veteran's Day every year and I was doing it long before 9/11. I'm no faux patriot Johnny-come-lately and I know how to treat flags with respect rather than using one to show off. You missed my point about all that ruining of flags being a short-lived phenomena and that I'm glad people stopped displaying the flags they'd ruined in their efforts to portray themselves as somehow more patriotic than others who knew better than to fly them from moving vehicles and the like. You and I usually agree on most things so it bothered me that I hadn't explained myself very well. My point was simply that there are ways of displaying a flag with respect and ways that they are misused - like those giant flags used as decorations by car dealers. A normal-sized flag displays a patriotic effort. A tattered and torn flag or an over-sized flag displays ignorance and disrespect.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Sun, Nov 23, 2008, 9:51 pm EST

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I've been reading over the posts since I entered the creation of the pledge and the changes it made through the years to accommodate the society of that time.. As that is exactly what they did, the times only changed in wording, in insight of or adherence to God, yet it's purpose hasn't changed. That we stand for our country and hold her dear to our hearts, has not changed in most of us, right or wrong, our country is the most liberated and balance of justice on this entire green planet. I enjoyed as a child reciting the pledge, and it did mean to me exactly what the words say. As a young child of 6 I remember the feeling of being patriotic and loving my country for which it stands ;)

As for the comments of 9/11 and the flying of the flag. I felt that was a great time in american history, when we all felt the impact of our people, our country and our liberties. We stood proud along side one another, coming together in a time of indifference, much like we are now with a new president in office. We became the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES and Proudly flew our flags for standing behind her, these United States, when we most needed to be one!

I never saw it as Jest askin has portrayed. although I have heard of others that felt that way, and it saddens me they did, it was a time of great coming together as a people in our history, and they seem to have missed the heart felt understanding of that coming together, it really is sad for them.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sun, Nov 23, 2008, 9:57 am EST

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Pledge or no pledge it is how it is being handled. That is the issue. Remember, we are all with flaws. I say lets see what happens and let the community decide. This is the problem with much of our country, neighbors sticking their nose in where it is unwelcome.

Douglas Duprey
Marshfield, VT
-- Posted by Douglas Duprey on Sun, Nov 23, 2008, 8:54 am EST

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P.S. Maybe you should watch the video, it has nothing to do with Rush Limbaugh or any party. You seem to know a lot about Rush for someone who doesn't listen in. How do you bottle up and keep in check all that conservative anger you carry around? Alexandra is on point with learning about government but mouthing the pledge as she put it might be a good place to start.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Sat, Nov 22, 2008, 4:32 pm EST

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Hey, Jest shooting your mouth off. Wasn't it you who took us from a tiny classroom in Woodbury to Iraq and Afganistan and to all the evil done by by Bush. The poll speaks for itself and it was done by Zogby who is not a Democrat. These people like many others out there do not have a clue who is running the government but they knew about Sarah Palin. That's great! You might also check the informal Howard Stern poll done in Harlem. This is not about black people, it's about ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed, stupid can't. If you have a closed mind and you practice one ideology as you do that can't be fixed. If the name fits wear it. Maybe some of our voting public would do well to learn about our government and our country before they vote. Saturday night live might be your choice, I prefer the classroom.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Sat, Nov 22, 2008, 4:06 pm EST

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Ah, yes, The old How Obama Got Elected poll.

I heard the comedian Rush Limpbag flapping his gums about this one on Thursday this week. I've yet to hear what the questions were that made all the Obama voters sound so ill-informed. That might be interesting to see, huh?

According to El Rushbo on the EIB Network, all the Omama voters are really stupid because they rejected his warnings regarding that Arab Muslim, Obama, and instead accepted the words of those horrible mainstream media outlets (drive-bys, in the Limpbag lexicon) that said Obama is half black and half white and was raised in a white Christian family. Gee, silly us, huh? We actually believe the guy's biography!

Too bad so many of us literate and fairly-well educated folks see now that in polls questions are often posed in such a way as to lead the interviewee in a direction that the poll-taker wants to take him. Questions could include information the poll-taker wants to pass along (right or wrong) like: "Do you know how many times George W. Bush was arrested for DUI?" Or maybe, "Do you believe that Dick Cheney shot a man in Texas just to watch him die?" (Nice tune but only half true) Or, misleading like "The RNC spent over $10,000,000 on clothes, hotel rooms, meals and entertainment for the Palin family during the recent election. Do you think that was A) too much, B) not enough or C) just about right?"

So, being the literate (that means I can read), fairly well-educated person I am, I'll hold my judgment of this "poll" until I can see the actual results (the raw numbers, with questions and answers), not the so-called statistics that guys like El Rushbo earn their mega-bucks from regurgitating all over right-wing talk radio.

By the way, wasn't this string about flags and pledges or something? Nice entries, James Joyce and Alexandra Thayer! Right on subject and so well-said.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Sat, Nov 22, 2008, 1:04 pm EST

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Here's some evidence of how people get elected!

http://howobamagotelected.com/
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Sat, Nov 22, 2008, 11:52 am EST

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"# of times Abraham Lincoln said the Pledge - 0

# of times Lt. William Calley said the Pledge - 2,267

Seeing Lt. Calley behind bars - priceless!"

James, that was great:)
-- Posted by Watercloset on Sat, Nov 22, 2008, 12:59 am EST

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Alex, your view from Spruce gives you insight that many lack. You are 100% correct!
Sincerely,
an old AG friend
-- Posted by James Joyce on Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 7:49 pm EST

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If we really love the United States and the principles for which it stands, we support differences of opinion, we support the rights of others to disagree with us, we don't support the idea that there is only one correct way to view political issues. This includes issues like the pledge of allegiance and whether it should be recited en masse in our schools, or other public gatherings.

For those who really love/appreciate the United States, saying the pledge isn't going to deepen that love or appreciation, nor is not saying it going to have any effect. And for those who don't reciting the pledge won't change their views either.

However, sadly, pledges of allegiance have too often been the tools of governments and leaders who don't believe in a free and open nation. For this reason, I as a grandmother, do not support the recitation of the pledge, especially a pledge to a FLAG, rather than the principles upon which our nation is based.

For some reason, flags seem to get peoples juices going, and encourage an us versus them mentality. The lack of civility in the postings here on this issue are an immediate example of why requiring kids, or anyone, to recite the pledge is itself anti-American. I would rather have the kids spend time learning about our form of government and becoming committed to the principle of equality and justice for all, rather than mouthing the words.

Vermont Grandma
-- Posted by Alexandra Thayer on Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 7:06 pm EST

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# of times Abraham Lincoln said the Pledge - 0

# of times Lt. William Calley said the Pledge - 2,267

Seeing Lt. Calley behind bars - priceless!
-- Posted by James Joyce on Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 6:27 pm EST

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Amen Spooky amen.
-- Posted by mark aja on Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 5:35 am EST

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BSA: "I bet a day with you is like a day without sunshine!"

Well, lad, you've got me there. On all the cloudy, rainy, snowy days you are absolutely correct. And given that November is the cloudiest, darkest month in Vermont, you are even more correct than you'd be in the other 11 months.

So, good job, BSA/S&T!

Have a great weekend!
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Fri, Nov 21, 2008, 12:03 am EST

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Jest Askin, You are sicker then I thought. I bet you will teach your grandkids to hate like you do. Your guy won the election and your still angry. Just can't leave it alone. Just got to blame everything on those damn republicans, George Bush, Rush and Fox news. Do you hear little voices in your head? I bet a day with you is like a day without sunshine!
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Thu, Nov 20, 2008, 5:31 pm EST

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Ahhh, S&T. Now I get it. You're one of those people who twist things around to make some point that most of us would never get. When I spoke of the twisted and torn flags that shamed the intent of displaying one of our national symbols incorrectly, I was talking about flags bought from places like Wal*Mart for the Johnny-come-lately faux patriots who had never before even considered displaying a flag either correctly or incorrectly. You really think "They came from the rubble! People pulled them out of destroyed buildings..." Well, I can't imagine how you ever came to that idea but if you want to imagine that all those guys in their loudly-blaring pickup trucks in downtown Barre, Vermont, went down to the site of the twin towers or to the Pentagon and sifted through the bricks and morter grabbing flags left and right, well you go right ahead. Someone has to dream up this nonsense I guess.

But, we're just tad off-subject don't you think? What has any of this got to do with Woodbury's pledge to the flag, huh? Sorry I led you off into la-la land, S&T. Let's both go back to listening to El Rushbo knock a guy who hasn't even had a chance to right the wrongs of the past 8 years or maybe we should be watching the "fair and balanced" stuff on Fox News. They're always worth a laugh or two.

TTFN!
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Thu, Nov 20, 2008, 5:01 pm EST

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Well, you've done it again Jest Askin: This quote from you totally offends me.

"From your comments regarding what you saw in the wake of 9-11 I guess you really enjoyed seeing people attach tattered and torn flags to the bed of their trucks and sticking out of their side windows. I didn't see that as patriotic and it certainly wasn't in any way beautiful."

Of course I didn't ENJOY seeing this! You think I was HAPPY that thousands of people lost their lives in the most tragic of ways? I was deeply devestated as a matter of fact. If there could have been some magic way that I wouldn't have had to have seen people displaying their "tattered and torn" flags after that day because it had never happened, then you can bet that is what I would have rather seen.

You really don't get it, do you? And I don't think you will never get it. Why do you think those people were displaying their "tattered and torn" flags? Just think about it. I'd be willing to bet that it had nothing to do with the fact that their flag was ruined...but it was a SYMBOL OF OUR COUNTRY. And a symbol that we were not going to be destroyed or "tattered and torn" by the people who did this to us. These people needed hope and something to show they were not "tattered and torn". But this is lost on you, I know.

"Then again, all those tattered and torn flags came out of nowhere and that's where they've all gone again. I'm not at all sorry to see them gone." Of course, they came out of nowhere! They came from the rubble! People pulled them out of destroyed buildings...to show that the COUNTRY WASN'T destroyed as the terrorists wanted! Would you have rather seen them run down to their local Wal-mart in the middle of the attacks so they could get brand new flags to display?

And of course they are gone. You can't leave them up forever. There comes a time when we move on and now it's time to show we're getting stronger by displaying our bright "shiny new" flags. Don't you dare say those people weren't patriotic. They were just trying to survive in any way they could.
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Thu, Nov 20, 2008, 11:58 am EST

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OK S&T, I can see that my using a direct quote from your post doesn't uncover whatever deeper meaning you ascribe to the topic of pledging allegiance to the flag. I guess I can't enlist you in carrying out my "agenda" either. Too bad, it was going to be such a cool agenda too. ;)

From your comments regarding what you saw in the wake of 9-11 I guess you really enjoyed seeing people attach tattered and torn flags to the bed of their trucks and sticking out of their side windows. I didn't see that as patriotic and it certainly wasn't in any way beautiful. According to all the material I read at that time about how to honor our country's symbol it was anything BUT an honor. I saw it as profane. I was ashamed of what people did to the flag at that time. It was mass ignorance. But that's just me ... and the books about how to diplay and honor the flag's symbolic purpose. Then again, all those tattered and torn flags came out of nowhere and that's where they've all gone again. I'm not at all sorry to see them gone. The only American flags I see these days are displayed by patriots who make sure they do not dishonor the symbol.

But, then again, you see the country and flag as the same thing so we have little in common there. No, I certainly can't speak for you nor would I ever try.

Hey, BSA, there's no need for you to comment to say you aren't going to comment. Oh, and you don't need to interpret S&T's comment for me either. He/she made him/herself perfectly clear.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 4:02 pm EST

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In the future I would appreciate it if you (Jest Askin) would not speak for me. You do not know me and your interpretation of what I said is not entirely correct. If you knew me you would know how much I love the American flag BECAUSE it is a symbol of the country that I love. By pledging allegiance to my country I DO pledge allegiance to the flag. It's one an the same to me. You ask, "What has the flag ever done for anyone?"...well for ME it brought hope after the attacks of 9-11. Seeing it raised was a symbol of a country united and a country who was going to pick up the pieces to honor those who died that day. This is what the flag did for ME.

Please do not change my words around to fuel your agenda. These are MY words and MY feelings. I'm NOT saying they are the feelings and beliefs of others, nor am I saying that they SHOULD be. We are all entitled to our own feelings on this issue and I was just expressing mine. You are free to do the same, but I just ask you to leave me out of it.
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 12:27 pm EST

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Sick and Tired did not agree with you. You need help with your condition.Other then that your comment do not deserve a response.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 10:44 am EST

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Sick and Tired: "So, I will "pledge allegiance" to my beautiful country because, despite all her faults, I would not want to live anywhere else!"

Thanks for agreeing with me, S&T. I note that you pledge to the country you love, like me, and not to a cloth symbol of the country. That's my point exactly. Well, part of it anyway.

But, how do you feel about the the religious phrase "under God" as introduced during the great godless anti-communist era fo the 1950s? Do you think that those of us who were reeducated to conform to the then-new pledge to a symbol were successful in keeping the "red menace" from our hallowed shores? Do you think some spiritual being favors us over all other countries (even when the GOPS are in power)? Not likely, huh? Some might even say that during those dark periods of our history, like the hole from which we are about to emerge, we are held in great disfavor by the gods ... bad karma kind of stuff.

Hmmm, just how do the gods punish an entire country for their misdeeds anyway? Germany and Japan were both rebuilt to the latest state-of-the-art in industry and social reform by those who defeated them. This, even though both countries punished their enemies without mercy during their attempts for world domination. Not bad "punishment" when you think about it.

So, what will happen to us now that the invading, occupying and torturing are about to cease? Do we punish ourselves? Do "the gods" Do it to us?

Food for thought...
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Wed, Nov 19, 2008, 9:05 am EST

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Sick and tired, I graciously accept your comments.
Thank You
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 4:58 pm EST

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A note to BS Avenger: I just thought I'd let you know that there have been many times in which I have strongly disagreed with some of your comments, HOWEVER, on this issue I have to say that I AGREE with you 100% and I feel that you have made some very clear points. I'm not sure why I feel the need to tell you that, except that maybe I found myself surprised that I actually agreed with you! But then again, that's the beauty of the United States of America! I am free to agree or disagree (as is everyone else). So, I will "pledge allegiance" to my beautiful country because, despite all her faults, I would not want to live anywhere else!

As far as a comment relating directly to this article...I think I gave my 2 cents last week...and I couldn't have said it any better than BS Avenger already did.
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 3:26 pm EST

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It appears that you would blindly follow our new president to the steps of Hell if he wants you to. Maybe your love of this man (not Messiah) and your symbol of his greatness has you pledging your allegiance to an ideology and not a reality. Only your left wing rational could move us from a tiny classroom in Woodbury to the republican's and George Bush as the blame for all the evils of the world. You need to seek help for your condition!
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 11:09 am EST

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Wow! Just think about this for a minute: why make a pledge to a symbol of something? Why not pledge allegiance to the thing itself. What has the flag ever done for anyone? The country, on the other hand, has done a lot for all of us; including electing an intelligent, rational, well-educated, all-American man, to lead us out of the incalculable mess left to us by the neocon nutcakes who have left the country in tatters after 8 years of fiscal mismanagement, illegal war, death, destruction, divided citizenry and an embarrassment in the world community.

But we have a chance to dig our way out of this mess now that the voters have decided that continuing to dig a deeper hole is not the way to turn things around.

God bless America, land that I love! God bless Iraq and Afghanistan too ... and any other countries we have invaded or attacked without provocation.

As for the kids, teachers, parents and administrators in Woodbury: good luck! If I had a vote I'd go with the pre-1954 version ... if I had to do this silly pledge to a symbol at all.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 12:29 am EST

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Just remember, adults are what these children look up to and learn from. I think the POA is a much better exercise then the absence of it. Seems like there's a lot of people out there who are afraid of our children learning to like their country, I see that as the problem and not the pledge itself. There is nothing in the pledge that makes the children loyal to their government. " I pledge allegiance to the flag of," (not the government) the United States of America and to the republic (our form of government) for which it stands, (Not any party, religion or philosophy) One nation (50 states) under God (who's God, no reference) indivisible (very questionable today) with liberty and justice for all. Is this such a horrible statement for children to learn? There is no problem with children, it is the parents and the teachers who have a problem and that problem is their own prejudices.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Tue, Nov 18, 2008, 12:06 am EST

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Hey Woodbury parents: If you are such civic-minded patriots, why don't you have your kids recite the Pledge of Allegiance before they go to school? You could try instilling your patriotic virtues in them instead of letting it be the job of those "liberal" teachers.
Mr. Tedesco pulled his kids out of school because he was dissatisfied with the standard testing results. Seems like teachers should be focusing on other aspects of education instead of figuring out a version of patriotism that everyone can agree on.
If the POA is so important and somehow teaches patriotism, recite it at home. Parents, do your part.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 5:09 pm EST

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The original Pledge of Allegiance as created by Francis Bellamy 1892:

"I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

1892 - 1923

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

1923 - 1924

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the Republic for which it stands: One Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."


1924 - 1954

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: One nation, indivisible, With liberty and justice for all."

God was entered into 1954 by the request of the Knights of Columbus and it was granted.

1954
"I pledge allegiance To the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: One nation, under God, indivisible, With liberty and justice for all."


If this is all about the flag and patriotism, then why not allow the schools to go back to the pledge before 1954? It is after all about our allegiance to our flag and our country, the United States of America. Not to god, that's what church is for.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 2:58 pm EST

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Dylanesq wants you to believe that the POA is being forced onto our children by the evil forces of our dictatorship, the USA. This is a perverted view of America. No one forces kids to recite anything in school anymore, but we do force children to go to school to be educated. Teaching about our country and promoting a good feeling about being an American does not harm the child, nor does it restrict freedom. First of all children are not free because they have not attained the age of majority. They do not control what they want to be taught. While teachers are required to set educational goals it is the parents who pay for schools through taxes, rent payments and subsidies from government and we all pay for government.

This whole freedom from oppression thing is BS in America, especially with our children. We can choose to teach our children that America is wrong and evil or we can try to pass it's goodness on to each generation by teaching why we are unique in the world and a force for liberty and justice for all. Those people who believe that this country and it's history should not be passed on to our children will condemn them to tear down the traditions and institutions that have made America the place where people risk their lives to come to. I understand that there are those whose lives are miserable because they do not like what America stands for. Maybe this is why we should go out of our way to make sure that our children understand the constitution of the US and the reasons for it's existence.
If not, we can teach anarchy which in itself is no more about freedom then ideology is about perfection. I will pledge allegiance to my country but not always to my government. There is a huge difference.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 2:51 pm EST

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The Pledge of Allegiance was designed to unite a country, and now has become a far too divisive topic.

I wish more energy was put into teaching elementary Civics, and in high school, basics of Philosophy. If these things were taught, we would have a better educated electorate. If we do not know what makes our system better than others, we will never make it work. It is worth defending but not with symbols or words.

It takes actions to make anything work. Above all else we must maintain Civility.
-- Posted by Green Mountain Avenger on Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 2:04 pm EST

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The 'move somewhere else if you don't like it' concept, if carried out, would result in a highly diminished USA which would hardly stand as the bastion of freedom that the so called 'patriots' claim it to be, instead sinking into fascism.

Forcing people to perform ritualistic acts and beliefs whether political or religious,is exacly how many dictators gained a strangle hold on their countries.They relied on the citizen's fear of being publically exposed for having an opposing view to the majority one.

A country is only as strong as it's ability NOT to force these controls upon it's population.Therefore, by trying to do so, proponents of forced recitation of the POA are merely revealing a fundamental reality here, that we truly aren't as free as we claim.
-- Posted by Dylanesq on Mon, Nov 17, 2008, 7:33 am EST

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What do you expect? The town's parents voted for a candidate who wouldn't even put his hand over his heart for the pledge, whose wife had never been proud of America, and whose best friend blew up the Pentagon and the NYC police HQ. Good luck central Vermont.
-- Posted by The Claw on Sun, Nov 16, 2008, 9:42 pm EST

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Youse don't rely thnk that the pledg of alegence is as important as geting a well edjucation like most Ameriksn skols?
-- Posted by John2 on Sun, Nov 16, 2008, 8:48 pm EST

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Maybe they should recite the 19th Century version of the Pledge of Allegiance in this 19th Century schoolhouse. That should solve all the problems - unless it's not really a pledge of allegiance to the nation and the flag that's the real issue. Personally, I just leave out the offending addition when I recite it. I do love this country, but I am a traditionalist after all.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Nov 16, 2008, 11:18 am EST

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hello , students under 10-11 years old reciting their constiutional rights --circling school officials ? right . smells like bored parents , must be bored parents . woodbury is SMALL , lets not make it smaller . if you don't love your country and aren't willing to pledge to it , the anwser is simple--move to the country of your choice , one that makes you happy , one that doen't trounce on your friggin rights as a small person , one that makes you happy , but of coarse nothing is going to make you happy ---you like a good fight !! how sad you use small children , you are very small .
-- Posted by spooky on Sun, Nov 16, 2008, 8:57 am EST

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