TimesArgus.com - We Are Vermont

New tax on workers part of proposed unemployment fund fix



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By Peter Hirschfeld
Vermont Press Bureau - Published: February 21, 2010

MONTPELIER – A state Senate committee has approved legislation that would see hundreds of thousands of Vermont workers pay an additional $100 million in new payroll taxes over the next four years.

The employee tax – already dubbed the "working families tax" by one Democratic gubernatorial candidate opposed to the idea – is the most controversial measure in a bill aimed at replenishing the state's bankrupt unemployment trust fund.

But the 0.2 percent surcharge on paychecks – $80 a year for someone making $40,000 – is just one of a slew of new financial burdens that would hit employers, workers and unemployment beneficiaries.

"It's a tough bill," said Sen. Vince Illuzzi, chairman of the Senate Committee on Economic Development, which approved the legislation in a 3-2 vote late Friday. "I wish I wasn't in the position to be on record to launch it and begin the contentious debate that will follow."

A 60 percent increase in the portion of each worker's wages on which employers are taxed would see Vermont businesses pay an additional $200 million into the unemployment fund over the next four years. And benefit reductions – achieved primarily by instituting a one-week waiting period for new claimants and changing the formula used to calculate benefits – would amount to more than $100 million over the same period.

The bill is far from a done deal. The 3-2 committee vote – the panel's first split decision on a "major" bill, Illuzzi said, since 2005 – reflects deep divisions in the Legislature over how to solve a crisis that could see the unemployment fund run nearly $300 million into the red by 2014.

Rising unemployment rates in Vermont rapidly drained the fund, which saw a $300 million balance in 2001 evaporate during the recession. Earlier this month, the fund hit a zero balance, forcing the state to get a credit line of $58 million from the federal government to pay the more than $4 million it sends out weekly in unemployment benefits.

Barring any changes, says Commissioner of Labor Patricia Moulton Powden, Vermont is on course to borrow $284 million from the feds by 2013.

Vermont incurs a number of financial penalties by borrowing. Interest on the loans – $5.8 million in fiscal year 2011 alone – will have to come from the General Fund, which is already struggling to meet the demands of critical programs and services. And the federal government imposes new tax penalties on employers in states with negative-balance funds – penalties that could run in excess of $24 million annually by 2013.

The specter of interest payments and higher federal taxes, Illuzzi and Moulton Powden say, means Vermont must act quickly to restore the fund to solvency. The Senate plan gets the trust fund back in the black by 2014 – an even more aggressive schedule than under the Douglas administration plan, which achieves solvency by 2015.

But the more quickly Vermont restores the fund, the more financial pain for businesses, employees and beneficiaries.

Sen. Doug Racine, a Chittenden County Democrat and gubernatorial candidate who sits on the economic development committee, said the employee tax provision compelled his vote against the bill Friday.

"I believe it's a rather huge additional tax burden on working Vermonters that just can't afford this right now," Racine said.

The Douglas administration also opposes the paycheck surcharge.

"While we respect that we have a crisis with regard to the unemployment trust fund, we think there are ways to solve this problem without instituting a new tax," Moulton Powden said last week.

While the tax proposal has drawn opposition from officials on opposite ends of the political spectrum, the real contention will lie in how to make up the $23 million in new revenue the tax would generate annually.

Racine and other Democrats say the onus is on the business community, which they say would shoulder a disproportionately small burden under the legislation passed Friday. Democrats by and large attribute the unemployment fund problem to chronic underpayment by employers, who have seen tax rates go unchanged over the last quarter century.

Between 1983 and 2009, the taxable wage base remained static at $8,000 (legislators approved an increase to $10,000 last year). In 1983, that figure represented 50 percent of the average wage. Last year, it was 22 percent.

Christopher Curtis, a lawyer with Vermont Legal Aid, which represents unemployment beneficiaries, said underpayments by employers got Vermont into this mess. The state needs higher contributions from them now, he says, to get it out.

"Taking money out of the pockets of workers, especially those who have been recently laid off, or working families, is not the way to get us out of this recession," Curtis said. "We believe the issue is more properly addressed through employer contributions and federal borrowing until the economy turns around."

The bill would calculate benefit rates based on the last four quarters of work, rather than the two-quarter threshold used in current law. The change, drafters say, is intended to decrease benefit levels for seasonal workers who know ahead of time that they won't be working for long periods of time. The provision would save the state nearly $10 million annually. But Curtis says that measure, combined with the one-week waiting period, unfairly targets out-of-work residents struggling to meet their most basic needs.

Administration officials and the business lobby see things far differently. Under the Senate plan, they say, businesses already would see per-employee unemployment obligations rise from $256 in 2009 to $680 in 2014. In lieu of the so-called worker tax, Moulton Powden says, Vermont should cut maximum weekly benefits to $400, from the current $425.

"We believe there's room for additional savings on the beneficiary side," she said Friday.

Illuzzi said it's worth noting that the employee tax – which would affect about 330,000 wage earners – expires once the unemployment trust fund is back on stable footing. And solving the problem quickly, he said, minimizes the ripple effect in the Vermont economy.

The proposal, should it make it through the Senate, is said to face considerable opposition in the House. Speaker Shap Smith said Friday that leadership there has yet to reach consensus on the employee tax concept.

"It's not dead on arrival," he said.

U.S. Rep. Peter Welch has proposed pending legislation that would forgive interest payments on federal unemployment loans. And some observers believe the widespread nature of the problem – 40 states are likely to see their unemployment funds run into the red in coming months and years – could compel the federal government to waive tax penalties and other financial impositions associated with borrowing. Those changes, Curtis says, would make longer-term borrowing more fiscally palatable than the aggressive measures in the Senate bill.



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READER COMMENTS


Another great one from Ted.com. On education called, "Ken Robinson says [public] schools kill creativity". He praises Al Gore for all you haters out there who want to call names and bias.
http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 11:39 pm EST

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Home work,

Define: MxV=PxO

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 11:13 pm EST

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45 mins in, they go over school vouchers.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 11:01 pm EST

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Benny, in the name of all things you live for; I beg you to watch the first ten minutes of this video. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2963837673813979186&ei=euiFS8eENp70qALr9tXzDA&q=video%3A milton friedman&hl=en&client=safari#

It is Milton Friedman in 2005 (age 93) discussing how what Reagan's monetary policy started, and the fed continued through Greenspan and Bernake, is what caused the US to be at its "peak economic performance in history during the past 15 years". He ironically mentions that the one things that could "unlikely happen would be for the fed to abandon it's good monetary policy and begin rapidly printing money to finance government debt" (interesting). I bet that if you make it through the first 8 minutes you will likely watch the entire hour interview.

Again, it will well be worth your time. Please take the initiative.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 10:20 pm EST

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Ok Ben E. Booh,

I do not think you have enough understanding of economics to understand what I am talking about. You talk a lot of talk, but you stumble and trip when you try to walk. There are points that you have made that are not only factually incorrect, but totally silly too. This is the last time I will go point for point until you demonstrate that you are at least willing to try to do some self educating on the topic. I make my living off the markets. I am simply telling you what I think will help to make people like me invest more instead of less. If you do not want to accept that and spout off some talking points with no real though into the matter then it is what it is.... another lost cause.

"I think you're wrong here. All of the evidence points in the other direction. With smaller government, it would follow that big business would become bigger."

Thinking must be new to you Ben E. Show me "all the evidence", I would love to see your sources. You agree with the conservatives then? There is no evidence of that what so ever, all the empirical research shows that, even in international examples through out history, where there was unrestricted free trade and markets there have ALWAYS been more competition, more choice, and less "big business". Look at the first 100 years of America, we went from nothing to an international success, booming economy, little to no regulation, very few taxes. Most of this country was built in the first 100-150 years, think about that for a second. There have been very few times where peoples economic position improved so greatly in so little time.

Take for example Britain before 1868, there were massive import and export taxes, regulations (involving more taxes), and as a result smuggling and illegal trade BOOMED (laffer curve in ACTION, it is not a "theory", it has been demonstrated time and time again). Even with burdensome taxes the English government was loosing revenue (hhhmmm) until finally Adam Smiths followers convinced parliament to remove all taxes on commerce, including imports and exports. As a result of this action Britain became the "workplace of the world" and after only 5 short years they held the "Great Crystal Palace Exhibition" to display their wealth to the leaders of the world. Everyone was better off.

Around the same time in 1868, the new leaders of Japan finally allowed foreign dignitaries to establish relations with Japan. Before that time, women were third class citizens, the country was isolated, and there were very poor living conditions on Western standards. Then the Japanese decide to follow the British example that unfolded only 17 years earlier as it was clearly proven the best system. As a result, free trade comes to Japan. They become a magnet for production and trade. Traditional industry is replaced by new industry and commerce. Japan has also developed a world class economy as a result of free markets. Every one was better off.

Look at India during the same time period. They had been "taught" by the "british intellectuals" of the time preaching central planning and strict government control which condemned them to poverty until recently. Since their independence, they have become increasingly free market based and everyone is increasingly well off. India still has great unrealized human and economic potential that will be unleashed as economic freedom evolves into social and political freedom.

Look at the difference between west and east berlin, benny. Look at history. There is nothing about your above statement that has any validity. Keep talking though, it has not stopped you before.

"Now which is it? Is the government supposed to get involved and "provide a profitable platform?" Or is are we supposed to "take the power out of the hands of the politicians and into the hands of the "markets"" as you say about ten sentences earlier? Make up your mind!"

We should remove the power from the politicians, but until then we need to make sure they provide a "platform" to do business since the free market is not being utilized. Once the potential of a totally free market is realized (aka economic freedom) then it is only a matter of time before political and social freedom follows. Look at the "ChiCom's" and India, as each of them develop more "economic freedom" they are becoming increasingly more socially and politically free. It is still evolving, but each of their conditions has improved undoubtedly as they have become more free market based.


"I don't know where to start with this load. Your problem didn't start in 2004- it started in '99 with the repeal of Glass-Steagall. This is an example of government GETTING SMALLER. Also known as DEREGULATION."

Ditto to your first point. You are not looking at the whole picture, you have to look at the modern monetary and economic history the the U.S. to have any valid gauge on the result the the Fed. The problem started in 1913 when they enacted the Federal Reserve Act, forming a centralized bank and as a result the abolishment of the gold standard. It was also that act that indirectly caused the great depression along with poor monetary policy. Again, no matter how well intentioned the legislation is, it is the implementation that always goes astray and causes damages. Might as well leave it up to the price system if you ask me. The current economic down turn was a natural recession that was magnified and made worse by the simultaneous collapse of a sector in the loan industry heavily subsidized and mandated by government. There are even studies coming out now that show that the stimulus has caused higher unemployment than would have been without the spending. All we did was subsidize inefficiency, again. Thus, the problem will arise again as the chips begin to fall like they did this time. It is like the gambling addict who has lost almost everything but has enough for one last gam. He figures if he BETS MORE THIS TIME, he will surly win big, despite there being no evidence or history to support that claim. We all know how that story ends, we are living it.

"Frannie and Freddie are buying incorrectly rated sub-prime mortgage backed securities by the buttload."

DUHHHH!!!! That is what I am saying! "Frannie" (its not the nanny, it's actually "Fannie") and Freddie are set up by the government. If A) the government had not mandated those securities, or B) provided a place for them to be dumped, then this whole damn mess would not have happened in the first place. Their solution is to buy more bad debt and "hope" things "change" (no pun intended.... ok a little pun). As I am pointing out, that is only going to postpone the "inevitable".

Just to reiterate: Smaller government = less regulation = more economic freedom = more social and political freedom= everyone is more better off from where they started.

Benny, the only thing "phooey" is you, your reasoning, and your very poor understanding of history. You are like a fart but worse, in stead of stinking you just give me a bad headache and burn my eyes.....

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 9:52 pm EST

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The comments on this blog are like a dog chasing a car. Now that I have caught up with the car what do I do now? In otherwords, now that Vt. has accepted the Federal Stimulus $'s and the teatering of Vt businesses to the Feds dictates for health care for all small business employees no exceptions.What will be the cost for Small businesses in Vermont? Well one approach is a tier layering of taxes being proposed. An exmpleof the tier approach is employed by Vt-workers kicking in $8.00 per month to the Unemployment Compensation fund. No fuel in the tank! In this tier approach is the possibily that the Small Business contribution will go up from circa $8.00 per person to over 100.00 $ per person per month. Lastly, Vt. will be the first State to begin to Tier its taxes on Real Property Real Estate and workers. It is already begining to happen aka School budgets holding even to 2008-2009 levels and taxes for Act 60 $'s projected to go up 6 % even though propety values aka appraisal values have gone down for the past two years. It appears as though there is now an intial attempt for taxation to establish an inverse relationship between ownership of real property and taxes on real property ergo to establish a tier approach to taxation.
-- Posted by None None on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 6:14 pm EST

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The problem started when the government starting taxing (income tax) its people to death without constitional CONSENT! Tax revolt!!! Time to clean out and take back our state and US Government. Enough is enough, they are killing us poor little hardworking peons...
-- Posted by Mel on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, 8:47 am EST

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ML,

"Yup, and how do businesses and politicians get so much power today? Through our current state of government. It is only because of big government that big business has thrived."

Which one is it? According to conservative doctrine, big government is antithetical to big business. Conservatives say that big business is hampered by big government, that government just gets in the way... you disagree? That's so good to hear.

"I firmly believe we would have less big companies with a smaller government."

I think you're wrong here. All of the evidence points in the other direction. With smaller government, it would follow that big business would become bigger. That is why business interests currently speak to the benefit of smaller government- they recognize that it is in their interests. Without regulations to keep companies from continually merging and creating monopolies, businesses grow unchecked.

"It (the economy) has been artificially stabilized temporarily, only postponing the imminent collapse."

How imminent? Ten minutes? Ten days? Or do you not really mean "imminent?" I don't think you do. Do you mean "eventual?" I think this is closer to the truth. I agree that capitalism cannot be sustained inevitably (if this is your point. (Though I know its not your point as you don't seem smart enough to understand this.)) If for no other reason that there are a limited number of resources and you cannot divide a limited number into an ever expanding number (population) perpetually, and expect growth to continue. Simple math = Anarchy 101.

"We should be maintaining money supply right now and not increasing it, we should be reducing government spending to a point that the budget is balanced, and we need to bring total taxation rates back below the "threshold" in the Laffer Curver."

You understand that the validity of the Laffer curve is (at best) only theoretical, right? That there's no actual evidence to support it? That its a thought experiment- a construct, and NOT a conclusion based on empirical evidence? (That means it sounds good (like "a rising tide lifts all boats") but whether its true or not is still a matter of conjecture.) Its supply-side economics at their basest, and feeble thinking, to say the least.

"The part that they have not done well is keeping government spending down, and not providing a stable or profitable platform to invest money."

Now which is it? Is the government supposed to get involved and "provide a profitable platform?" Or is are we supposed to "take the power out of the hands of the politicians and into the hands of the "markets"" as you say about ten sentences earlier? Make up your mind!

"The markets are waiting to see where this piece of legislation is going before they start building new plants or factories. They need to know exactly how many taxes they will be paying on a project that may take 4 or 5 years. Investors are waiting to see in the stock market too, they do not want to buy a bunch of shares in a company that is strong now but likely to parish if the legislation is enacted, or at a minimum be damaged financially as a result of it. "

I think you're wrong here, too. The reason there's less investment now, is that people don't trust the system. They've gotten a glimpse that the system is a house of cards, and that's scary as hell for a lot of people who 18 months ago assumed that these guys on Wall St. had their best interests at heart. Now they realize that the only interests that Wall St. takes to heart are Wall St.'s. They'd rather sink their money into govt. bonds or keep it in their mattresses where they'll only lose inflation and not the farm. They see that the deck is stacked against them and they're not getting in the game. But even you can see from the fact that money has shifted into govt. bonds and treasuries, that people are trusting the government more than Wall St.. People vote with their money, no? You must hate that.

"The governments (the fed specifically) of the past 4 administrations (including Milton Friedman) have done a decent job with money supply and price stabilization. It is only in the past 6 years that we have started messing it all up again through excessive spending and redistributive legislation."

I don't know where to start with this load. Your problem didn't start in 2004- it started in '99 with the repeal of Glass-Steagall. This is an example of government GETTING SMALLER. Also known as DEREGULATION. What does it do? It deregulates banking, insurance and securities into a financial services industry allowing financial institutions to grow very large. It limits Community Reinvestment Coverage of smaller banks and makes community groups report certain financial relationships with banks. I seem to remember between 2000 and 2001 the Fed lowering the fed funds rate 10 or 11 times from around 6 and a half percent in May or June of 2000 down to 1.75% by December of '01. Remember that? It was that credit environment that fueled the sub-prime crisis- way before your "6 year" load of crap. And it was 2002 when George Bush set his "goal" of 5.5 million "new minority home owners by 2010" through billions in tax credits and subsidies, not to mention the $440 billion Fannie Mae committed to establish NeighborWorksAmerica which was supposed somehow to work with only faith based organizations? Do you remember all of this crap? But the economy was starting to come back by '02, and the Republicans were large and in charge of everything. I don't think it was until '03 that Greenspan lowered the key rate to 1%, even though there were plenty of signs of an economic turnaround already. By 2004 The big institutions were doing all of this "lending" by automated processes, because they'd grown to big to handle it with people (I think Countrywide was the "leader" on that one.) By 2005 they'd stopped properly reviewing loan applications and documentation. And there lie the seeds of our destruction- smaller government leading to business growing too fast, without proper supervision.

Meanwhile, Frannie and Freddie are buying incorrectly rated sub-prime mortgage backed securities by the buttload. Why are they incorrectly rated? AGAIN- deregulation- insufficient personnel or inclination by a Republican controlled government to care. And by 2007, the sub-prime market has grown to $1.3 trillion, due almost entirely to the private sector entering the mortgage bond market, which (before deregulation) had been the bailiwick of government agencies like Freddie Mac. Of course we now understand that the growth generated by this charade wasn't unlike a ponzy scheme based in poor documentation and an absence of supervision. And the way they got away with this was by making sure that the securities that these loans were made into were so chopped and diced that putting humpty together again just wasn't gonna happen, nor was their structure to be understood by the companies (like Countrywide) who over-invested in them on some kind of magical thinking that says that markets never correct themselves. I hope we all remember what happened from there.

Just to reiterate: Smaller government = less regulation = bigger corporations = playtime on Wall St. = nightmare for everyone else.

Phooey, ML. Just phooey.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 11:47 pm EST

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a must see documentary
www.generationzeromovie.com
The current economic crisis is not a failure of capitalism, but a failure of culture. Generation Zero explores the cultural roots of the global financial meltdown - beginning with the narcissism of the 1960's, spreading like a virus through the self-indulgent 90's, and exploding across the world in the present economic cataclysm.

Generation Zero goes beneath the shallow media headlines and talking head sound bites to get to the source of today's economic nightmare. With a cutting edge style and haunting imagery, this must see documentary will change everything you thought you knew about Wall Street and Washington.

Featuring experts, authors, and pundits from across the political spectrum, Generation Zero exposes the little told story of how the mindset of the baby boomers sowed the seeds of economic disaster that will be reaped by coming generations.
..
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 10:20 pm EST

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tax tax tax
Throw the bums out, that dont seem to be able to run a hotdog stand much less govern our state.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 7:22 pm EST

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J.A Your annoying as all get out! Why clutter up this thread with your blithering ; Go AWAY! Believe me your condescending demeanor is obtuse,obfuscated and silly! Get lost! Go bother the Governor ! Or complain to the T.A. Your blight on this T.A. site.
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 7:20 pm EST

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Folks : Here is the straight skinny on the tariff alluded to in the T.A. i.e. $8.00 surcharge for all small business workers in Vermont to replenish the Unemployment Compensation fund. This info presented here, was taken from a statement made by Governor Chriest as reported in the St. Augustine Record Newspaper on Feb 23, 2010: Florida has borrowed over $1 billion $'s from the Feds to plug the Unemployment Compensation fund with the following downside. Repayment of Interest starts in 2011. The minimum rate a small business paid into the Unemployment fund in 2009 was $8.40 an employee. In 2010 it jump to $100.30 per employee. In 2011 in Vermont it is going to go nowhere except up. Now in Vermont the State legislators in their eminent wisdom are going to assess an $ 8.00 per month surtax to the workers in Small businesses to help small businesses pay for the replenishment of the State of Vt Unemployment compensation fund. Chriest has decided not o touch the $440- additional million of Stimulus $s' for Florida unlike Vermont. Senator Sanders and Leahy have participated in allegedly bringing into Vermont in the future circa $330 million for Strategically located health centers in the State and $90 million for Medicaid but no one has addressed the downside,i,e. How are Vermont workers going to pay this back to the Feds? Moreover, with the cost of Health insurance going up, one of the add-ons to the State of Vermont accepting these Stimulus $'s is that in the future all small businesses will be required to carry health Insurance for "All Workers". Isn't it reasonable to assume that many small businesses in Vermont may not be able to carry this financial burden?
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 7:07 pm EST

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Ya can't write a script better than this, can ya?

"Kids are dumber now a days anyways, all that goes on in schools is social diverty bull ****e"
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 3:17 pm EST

Wow!
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 6:48 pm EST

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ALSO-
Why the heck are we paying for PRE-K!!??

Parnets pay for your own kids and put them in day care and pay the private sector for daycare or stay home & take care of your own kids!
Be parents, teach your kids teh colors and a few letters and numbers and shapes, Good God. do parents do anything for their kids anymore these days?!
State of Vermont is now raising kids prek-18?
Sad Sad irresponsible people
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 3:19 pm EST

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Fire all the teachers if they dont take pay cuts and kick in more for insurance and pension...clean out each school, one at a time
http://www.projo.com/education/content/central_falls_teachers.1_02-13-10_A8HEI7Q_v61.3a65218.html

Kids are dumber now a days anyways, all that goes on in schools is social diverty bull ****e
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 3:17 pm EST

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What!>?
'Barring any changes, says Commissioner of Labor Patricia Moulton Powden, Vermont is on course to borrow $284 million from the feds by 2013."

CUT THE BUDGET SPENDING. Cut all money funneled into nonprofits, they are only extensions of quasi-govt, they live off taxpayers and lobby against us anyway...cut the spending JUNKIES off!
Nonprofits dont pay taxes, only TAKERS and give nothing back, cut them off!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 3:08 pm EST

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Coydog-
This is when the liberals get violent, as seen by their past behavior when things didnt go their way. O' Bummer's friends blowing up police stations and capitol building. Burn down bluildings and vandalize them when its a company they dont agree with.... They get desperate and violent. Name calling is all they can do. They have yet to debate policy, all personal attacks.
They pick a person, label, demonize in hope to isolate. Most people are hip tot heir Saul Alinksy tactics.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 3:04 pm EST

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Coydog, I can picture the foot stomping, hair pulling tantrum Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid must have thrown when Scott Brown was elected (smiles to self.)
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 2:05 pm EST

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Baxter P. Have you noticed the shrill angry desperation and lack of factual dialogue from the progressive socialists. It certainly is understandable given what's happened to the "hopey changy" administration in Washington. The disingenuous (to avoid using liar) and astounding incompetence of their failed attempts at "fundamentally changing America" in spite of the enormous ( soon to end ) majority they hold in both houses of Congress must be tough to take.
The fact that progressives are so sure in their ideology that due to the basic ignorance of anyone but themselves and their righteous belief that they know what's best for everyone, it's easy to see how they must be frustrated, having to put up with constitutional restraints and the will of the people.
You have to admire their tenacity. Just look at their efforts in resurrecting Obamacare II. They think if they change the rules they can cram it down our throats. What's really amazing is their total lack of concern as they continue to spend the Country into bankruptcy. They don't seem to care much about the consequences of a Persian nuclear weapon. I hope their expectations of rational behavior from the imams pans out until they get thrown out of power and we get an administration that isn't ideologically opposed to defending ourselves.
I think it's safe to assume that we are in for more examples of outrage from the far left progressive socialists as they see their dreams of unlimited government control squashed by American's love of individual freedom and opportunity. They aren't very good losers.
-- Posted by coydog on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 1:45 pm EST

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"Please debate me."

If you insist.

"Your problem comes in your absolutes"

No, your problem with what I am saying comes from YOUR absolutes, which are not absolutes always, but under the current system only. Observe:

"When you give too much power to anyone (whether its government or private business) it gets abused"

Yup, and how do businesses and politicians get so much power today? Through our current state of government. It is only because of big government that big business has thrived. Everyone knows that more regulations hurt the little guys. The more the big guys can hurt the little guys, through over bearing government regulation, the better off the big guys and the politicians are. If you take the power out of the hands of the politicians and into the hands of the "markets" or the individual person, the big guys would be fewer and farer between because the little guys would have a better chance of lasting and growing and most importantly competing. Big government and big business are one in the same. At least in most instances, big businesses gets your money some what voluntarily, government takes it. I would prefer power as a result of voluntary action oppose to force, even though I firmly believe we would have less big companies with a smaller government. The only thing that is "absolute" is that people will serve their own best interest better than anyone else's. People do not spend other peoples money as carefully as they spend their own.

"The financial crisis is plenty evidence of that. And if it weren't for government intervention, we'd be at 25% unemployment and deep into a depression. It was government programs like (you loved to malign it but it worked) cash for clunkers that unfroze the credit markets and brought the economy back form the brink. "

I do not even know were to start on this one. The economy is STILL ON THE BRINK. It has been artificially stabilized temporarily, only postponing the imminent collapse. The right thing to do, as illustrated by capitalist Berlin is to adhere to strict monetary policies regardless of short term ills. There is no desirable action to take now that we are where we are. It is not going to be so easy to get out of this. We should be maintaining money supply right now and not increasing it, we should be reducing government spending to a point that the budget is balanced, and we need to bring total taxation rates back below the "threshold" in the Laffer Curver. It would be more productive to capital investments, which is what we need, not lending. There is plenty of money available to be lent out, that is one thing the government (bernanke specifically) has done well.

The part that they have not done well is keeping government spending down, and not providing a stable or profitable platform to invest money. There is so much uncertainty in what Obama (government to keep it "Apolitical") is currently doing that everyone is just sitting on their cash waiting to see what is going to happen. For example, cap-n-trade legislation. The markets are waiting to see where this piece of legislation is going before they start building new plants or factories. They need to know exactly how many taxes they will be paying on a project that may take 4 or 5 years. Investors are waiting to see in the stock market too, they do not want to buy a bunch of shares in a company that is strong now but likely to parish if the legislation is enacted, or at a minimum be damaged financially as a result of it. Healthcare is another example. People are not willing to hire a large amount of people if the whole way that they are taxed on healthcare is potentially going to change. They are not willing to take the risk of hiring 100 people today, and then not be able to afford them and others later as a result of the legislative costs incurred.

The governments (the fed specifically) of the past 4 administrations (including Milton Friedman) have done a decent job with money supply and price stabilization. It is only in the past 6 years that we have started messing it all up again through excessive spending and redistributive legislation. In this instance it was subsidized housing, subsidized personal loans, war spending, government expenditures in healthcare, retirement cost and so on (by all parties) that got us where we are, not the free markets. It was through legislation (an protests by acorn) that banks were made to issue loans they knew would not likely ever be repaid or turn a profit. Now, what this does is it makes it so that the banks have less cash on hand or in profitable investments. Once these loans start going bad, the people who remain with the banks loose more and more of their money.

People commonly assume that when you deposit you check into your account that the money goes and sits in a box in a vault until you need it back. They do not do that though obviously, they immediately lend it out and earn money on the interest. What happens when they start loosing all their money as these loans start defaulting? The banks start failing. Nobody is too big to fail, they just fall harder, thats the point. Nothing has changed since the beginning, we are still loaning out more subsidized loans to people who will not likely pay them back. In my opinion the right thing to do to prevent (or minimize it anyway) the housing crash would have been for the government to take in the bad debt that it created and simultaneously stop issuing more of the same loans. That is the only action they could have taken in that regard. It would have been expensive, but not trillions, and at least it would have closed the door to the problem. The steps they could have taken, as I mentioned, would be to cut spending and maintain the money supply rather than increasing it further. Taxes are not even the issue in the sense that we are still spending more than we are being taxed, we need to balance the budget first off. This, I believe can be done, by bringing the overall tax rate lower, BELOW THE THRESHOLD of the Laffer Curve, and government revenue would increase as capital investments took off.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 1:10 pm EST

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AYK More like a hang-mans noose. In case you want to read about this mess and its possible implications for Vt SM ALL BUSINESSES AND WORKERS read the: The St. Augustine Record Tuesday Feb 23,2010 . The Article is entitled :" Tax hike delay sought" by Brandon Labrabee or an alernaTE TITLE COULD BE jOBLESS"
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 11:46 am EST

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Nothing comes from the govt without strings attached. Progressive liberal tampons.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 11:18 am EST

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J.A. At-a-boy! Out of the mouths of babes comes THE TRUTH!
You sure your name is not Barb? Have a good one. If you guys think for a minute that applying a worker surtax on the Vt.Worker is a bad decision wait until the full impact of accepting the Federal Stimulus $'s comes down on the small busnesses in Vermont. One thing the Feds, did not tell you and none of you seem to read anything else other than the T.A.. There are conditions with serious financial implications attached to small businesses for the States that accept the Federal Stimullus $'s: In 2011 small businesses will be expected to pick up "health care expenses" for "all" their Vt-employees. The only way small businesses ,in Vt. can do that is to release part of their work force. Guess what? The unemployed Vt- workers will add to Vt's already vunerable bottom-line for small businesses in Vermont. Ask Sanders or Leahy or Welch about the impact of Governor Douglas's and the Vermont State legislature decision to accept the Stimulus $'. Ask them what the full negative impact of accepting the OBAMA-Stimulus $'s will be in 2011 & 2012? You will get this negative impact plus the stimulus $'s for Vt.run out in 2011.Ask them where do we go now? An $ 8.00/ month worker surtax will seem like a walk in the park ! Here we go again!
-- Posted by None None on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 11:07 am EST

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JA - You can check the archival footage of any of the major TV stations to find the exit interview I mentioned in my post regarding the Democrat who said he voted for Scott Brown because he was tired of the Kennedy's telling us what to do. I don't make things up. I don't need to.
Have to wonder why Patrick Kennedy decided not to run for re-election for his Congressional seat in Rhode Island. Maybe he saw the exit interview too!
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 10:32 am EST

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ML,

There is some truth in what you are saying. Your problem comes in your absolutes. None of the rules that you believe to be absolutes, are so. When you give too much power to anyone (whether its government or private business) it gets abused. The financial crisis is plenty evidence of that. And if it weren't for government intervention, we'd be at 25% unemployment and deep into a depression. It was government programs like (you loved to malign it but it worked) cash for clunkers that unfroze the credit markets and brought the economy back form the brink.

I certainly don't think that government is always (or even usually) the solution, But your world of absolute, unfettered capitalism is idealistic and foolish to the point of nonsense.

Please debate me.

.
-- Posted by Bennett Shapiro on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 9:56 am EST

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Funny how they spend all the money on every other social program and enviro- whacko agenda, but when it comes to unemployemnt, they use that fund to begf for money for those people truly in need of it and lost a job due to the anit-business progressive liberal taxes
They could shut off the money to some non-profits that serve no purpose except to take taxpayer money for some looney leftwing cause with there are already so many of the same kind. How many save the tree non-profits do they need? Take the nonprofit tax exempt status away and maybe they could kick in back to the system they love to suck dry, as they sustain themselves all off of taxpayer money, another tier of beaurocracy jsut called something else.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 9:48 am EST

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Jest Askin - Your arrogant tone in your replies reinforces my previous post.
If you followed Massachusetts news you would know that it's governor, Democrat, Devall Patrick, is very unpopular and from all the polls in our state will not have a snow ball's chance in heck in getting re-elected due to all the new tax hikes he has initiated. Just call us Taxachusettes!
He knows this and will probably not run for re-election.
He looked very uncomfortable standing next to Martha Coakley at her concession speech to Scott Brown too.
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 9:14 am EST

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Tax Revolt!!! Good Bye illuzzi, last term in office!
-- Posted by Mel on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 8:32 am EST

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Tim Celley - What a breath of fresh air!
Posting about the topic of the article, rather than posting barbs at the other posters, or constant partisan drivel. Gee, maybe that is what the TA set up the comment section for?
-- Posted by Lulu's Mom on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 7:48 am EST

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Anti tax people, find some common ground. Divided nothing will change.
-- Posted by Tim Celley on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 7:10 am EST

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Mr Baxter P :YES I do recognize Mr.J.A'S arrogance and I am not contianed on telling himn so. Thank you for your support
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:44 am EST

Holy cow! I couldn't make that stuff up if'n I tried. NN, you don't drive when you're in that condition, do you?
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 12:33 am EST

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Baxter P. sez: "One of the local TV stations interviewed someone coming out from their polling place and they said they were a Democrat, but they voted for Scott Brown because they were sick of the Kennedy's telling us what to do all these years!"

Well that certainly showed those Kennedys a thing or two didn't it? The guy voted for a live guy to show up a dead guy? You made that up, didn't you, Baxter?

People in Massachusetts are pretty savvy voters. That's why there are so few GOPs in the state legislature. There's one less with Brownie moving to Washington but I suppose the governor will have to appoint another GOP to take his place. He seems like a fair guy. After all, he's a Democrat!

So, you really think the Kennedys were hurt when Ted didn't get re-elected this time? Wow!
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, 12:26 am EST

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None, nothing you just said is true. So lets debate.

The whole point is that if you raise taxes above a certain threshold there becomes an incentive to "shelter" your income or go around the laws all together. That DECREASES the over all income in tax revenue to the government regardless of the intentions of government. I also completely disagree that people are not complaining about taxes and that taxes "increases the quality of living of everyone". It is natural to not complain in oppression and tyranny, freedom is not a natural state of mankind and has never fully been realized (more people have lived in deplorable and oppressed conditions than in freedom throughout human history). There has been no instance where taxation has been a good thing or produced the intended or even a desirable outcome. The more you tax, the more government spends, the more capital controlled by the government, the less in private investments, which means LESS ECONOMIC GROWTH FOR EVERYONE, and indirectly less revenue to the government.

It was not the result of government policy that got us out of the depression, it was what got us into it, monetary policies specifically. The government action was in my opinion, along with other real economist, a necessary action given the mess it had already created to cause the great depression. The recovery happen even with, not because of, all the harmful taxes and social policies (many later ruled unconstitutional) the government was implementing.

It was only because of the failure of the Federal Reserve that the great depression happened, it was not failure of capitalism. As crazy as it sounds, in the late 1920's and early 30's, all the government had to do was print more money. I know, it sounds ridiculous but it is true. The supply of money fell by one third in the course of 4 years or so. As soon as people wanted to take all their money out of the bank, the feds should have given it to them, the banks should never have been allowed to run out of cash. If this had been done, the "run" would have only lasted a week at the most and the economy could have been saved. As soon as the banks all started to fail, the stocks plunged and cash became king, which there was one third less of out there by the end of the depression than in the beginning.

I hate to keep citing the same person in multiple topics but again, Milton Friedman explains it far more eloquently than I even will be able to. He even cites an example in which a single department of the Fed Reserve did the correct thing out west and saved a whole region from what happen in the north east.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7pnjzCuSv8

Let the debate commence.

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 9:54 pm EST

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Mr. Perkins,

If you are going to talk about the Laffer Curver, then you must understand taxation and what causes it. Look at the other industrialized nations and realize that they are taxed at a much higher rate that US citizens and they aren't complaining...Raising taxes on those making over $200,000 or more doesn't effect anyone substaintially (well within the curve if you ask me) AND increases the quality of living of everyone.

Furthermore, if we went back to a tax system like the US had in the 30's and 40's (which brought us out of recession by the way), you would see that the tax rate then was much higher, it promoted business and started the global dominance of our county.

P.S. - I would love to debate you on Economics any day.
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 4:22 pm EST

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Mr. Perkins, I forgot to mention that my late father who worked for the State of Vermont graduated from an Ivy League college with a degree in Economics!
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 2:00 pm EST

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I agree with the threads of"Separation of Church and State" and the parameters of the 1st amendment and also the 10 th Amendment. But the Grand Isle churches should understand that understanding cuts both ways. Why should Grand Isle United Methodist Church be permitted to petition a town with a formal letter from its board of Trustees asking for access to the Town Real Property taxes as a gift of a "Grant in Aid " to a chruch related charity, aka Food Pantry? If they want tax $'s then pay into the Town Real Property Tax Coffers. Otherwise, obtain and receive Charitable donations as gifts from private sources! Or United way! Then the Select board of the Grand Isle town plays games and subverts the process by awardng the request directly to the Pantry. YUK-YUK-YUK
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 1:56 pm EST

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Mr. Perkins, I take great offense at your bashing of Vermont State employees. My late father was a Vermont State employee for over 35 years and no one worked harder than him with no complaints.
Look to your state legislature if you want to complain.
When my father passed away he was still employed by the state and they had to hire 3 people just to replace him.
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 1:39 pm EST

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coydog,i fully understand the separation of church and state...this thread turned to talk of freeloaders, that is my reason for bringing in the church...freedom of religion somehow translates into a free ride??? don't fool yourself into thinking that religion(not freedom of religion) is as important to everybody as you think it is...so instead of adding new taxes to people allready paying taxes, let's tax those who have NEVER paid a tax, including chronic abusres of the welfare system
-- Posted by The Curse on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 1:25 pm EST

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My point would be -the people of Vermont have to draw a line somewhere. And say NO MORE TAXES. Tell the state,schools,conservation programs- ETC. Spend within a budget. I have to plan my money, no reason that everyone can't follow that household rule. The VT legislature has not done a very good job of this. VIA--Tax and spend, If your happy with your taxes,and want more of the same? Keep voting for the same people . It's been my experiance they don't care if your having trouble putting food on the table,as long as they get their entittlements. It's important to go to town meeting and watch and listen. Ask yourself are the people saying SPEND, SPEND, SPEND or are they trying to hold a line? Vote accordingly. Don't vote,don't complain.
-- Posted by Tim Celley on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 1:22 pm EST

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"The First Amendment clearly places the church outside the jurisdiction of the civil government: "Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Religion cannot be free if you have to pay the government, through taxation, to exercise it."

The idea of taxing churches is just another howl of nonsense from the screwball secular Marxist progressives of the far left. To replace or weaken religion with more tax funded nanny state entitlements makes as much sense as trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
We need less taxes, smaller government and more individual freedom.
-- Posted by coydog on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 12:41 pm EST

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CSI I do not know how you stand yourself.

You must be a state employee. You have no basic understanding of economics. You people (state employees) would be far better off yourselves, and the rest of us too, if you focused you productive potential into creating capital investments rather than sucking the rest of us dry (save the whole "state workers pay taxes too" argument until you understand economics enough to know how stupid such a statement is).

What everyone else must understand is the Laffer Curve. (everything you need to know: http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg1765.cfm and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve)

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 12:06 pm EST

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How about a tax on those that don't contribute to Vermont, you know the lazy that have it good sucking the Human Services in this State dry. They're sucking my family dry by increased taxes. I guess it would be to much to ask for people to actually take care of themselves. I mean isn't it the American Way!

.
-- Posted by charles on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:46 am EST

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Mr Baxter P :YES I do recognize Mr.J.A'S arrogance and I am not contianed on telling himn so. Thank you for your support
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:44 am EST

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Can't Stand Ignorance. I agree that Vermont State employess have done their part.
I have a good friend who recently had to deal with a couple of Vermont state agencies and said the service she got from them was steller. They answered their own phones and they have gotten back to her on her questions in a timely manner even though they are stretched thin and are very busy.
I wish the State of Massachusetts State employees were even half that competent!
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:32 am EST

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It was not too long ago, Governor Douglas said "we are in tough economic times and Vermont state employees need to do their part to help by taking a 3% cut in pay" - if he lets this bill pass without a veto, I can guarantee I'll be the first one standing up and screaming "This should not apply to State employees - we already did our part." It is very rare that I agree with our Governor, but it does appear that this is not going to really go anywhere - I hope whoever has the power to vote out Illuzzi does so - this was political suicide on his part!
-- Posted by Can't Stand Ignorance on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:25 am EST

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None None, I recognize the arrogance of Jest Askin and his "if you don't agree with me you must be out of touch and uninformed."
It is the same arrogance we see every day from the Obama administration in Washington and does not intimidate me.
This is why his poll numbers have dropped like a stone.
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 11:00 am EST

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Folks let me give you some advice about Jest Arsekisser! He uses vile nmaes,ridicule and bull pitut. He is what is amis in Vermont. Also Churches aka the United Methodist Church has its a Member of the Church Board of Trustees in Grande Isle Vermont write a letter requesting of the Selectboards in Grand Isle to contribute our hard earned Real Property Tax $'s be given to a Food Pantry in Grand Isle. When Churches begin to ask for access to Real Property tax $.s YES! In my opinion they and their priperties should be taxed, but won't be . This is the United States and we have ethical rules where you render unto the Government those things that belong to the Government and those things that belong to the Church those donations belonging to the church. In that Vermont was the 14th State to join the Union I know of no Special ciurcumstances of an exception but apparently in Grande Isl county Verrmont there is an exception to this constitutionl barrier between church and state. ONLY IN VERMONT
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 10:37 am EST

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Jest Askin - Then why didn't all those Kennedy supporters come out to vote for Martha Coakley?
Because most people in Mass wanted an end to the Kennedy dynasty, that's why!
One of the local TV stations interviewed someone coming out from their polling place and they said they were a Democrat, but they voted for Scott Brown because they were sick of the Kennedy's telling us what to do all these years!
I really think Ted would have not gotten elected this time if he had been alive to run. The people of Massachusetts were sending a message to the administration in Washington that they don't like what they are seeing and wanted change and they got it!
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 10:34 am EST

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Wow! I like that idea presented by The Curse. Many of us have offered that for many years.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 9:58 am EST

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Baxter P., what "political lifers" have been voted out in Mass.? The only recent election I'm aware of was one to replace a US Senator who died! He wasn't voted out at all. He died in office. Do you really think that Scott Brown could have been elected dog catcher against Ted Kennedy? Come on!

Oh, are you talking about Martha Coakley? She's still in office! She lost the election but not her job. Geesh!

Don't you pay attention to the elections in your new state? You sound about as knowledgeable as some of the people here in Vermont; people like the *********** and their pals who want to disown them, the GOPs.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 9:57 am EST

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i totally agree that social programs are out of control as there are people that have lewarned to manipulate the system for generations...too many free rides given out to people that are capable but are lazy...here's what i suggest to raise money...let's tax the churches...the property and income taxes they have a free pass on would surely bolster the coffers...vast tracts of land, ornate palaces of worship, collection plates,etc...televangelists prey upon believers for their tithes or donations in return for miracles and an afterlife paradise...what a scam
-- Posted by The Curse on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 9:56 am EST

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As a third generation Vermonter living in Massachusetts because that is where I had to go to get a decent paying job to support myself, you people need to take action like we did in Mass and VOTE out these political lifers who only have their best interest in mind, not yours!

You have the power in your votes in November to send a message loud and clear! No more taxes!

It boggles my mind that the only solutions the Democrats come up with to get more money, because they are spending it like druken sailors, is to add on more taxes.
-- Posted by Baxter P. on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 9:13 am EST

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Thanks N.N. Town meeting is just a good place to start.
-- Posted by Tim Celley on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 8:05 am EST

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Nice to have you aboard Mr.Cellery: "Vote: However, your messaged in some towns in Vermont is subverted by powers outside of our hands to deal with it. Case in point: Isle LaMotte Town clerk sentenced to 90 days for embezzeling $100,000.00 not a bad paycheck. Town clerk of Ira allegedly taking $386,000: Nothing done to follow up on this after several months. The town Of North Hero selectboard donating town Real Property Tax $'s to a Food pantry .They used a little known law in vermont that gives them permission to take Real Property Tax $'s and give those $'s to charity. Read the Town of North Hero select board minutes of early this year 2010 (The law is cited as 24 V.S.A. §§2691 -2696). This State is a cess pool and no one knows how to straighten it out except to Tax their way out of this mess. Can you imagione the selectboard members of North hero Vt. are running again in 2010 for the select board of North hero Vt. ( See the Burington Free Press for Names and the North Hero Web site for comparison) Ths week it is the Town Clerk of Coventrys' day/week in the barrel . Naughty,naughty! So much for the elected constituents of the Republic of BOHICA aka verobnt electd officials and its Gimme my Fair share benchmrk
-- Posted by None None on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 7:53 am EST

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What happened to "tapped out tax wise?" If we don't remind them in November we'll be "tapped" again.
-- Posted by Ernest McDonald on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 7:47 am EST

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Taxes up too your ears? Go to town meeting look, listen , and vote!!!! If you don't vote, don't complain.
-- Posted by Tim Celley on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, 7:22 am EST

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NN-
Take Back Vermont is right. Back to the way it was 25yrs ago before the Howard teh Cowards and Madeline Kunins wrecked it. Theyve allowed Vermont to become a swamp for liberals.
Be careful not to vote for progressive liberals. See who the person is thats running for office, they slither into the republican party as well, dont get fooled. If they work for a non profit involved in enviro-MENTAL, or any nonprofit thats big on social services, red flag--jacked up taxes. They perpetuate the problems only to be self serving again...more more more...they are in fact the greedy ones. Remember non-profits suck off the taxpayer money in teh form of so-called "grants" (doesnt get repaid back to taxpayers) into their little organization, dont confuse it with a real busienss that pays taxes. Big difference.
Vote for a small business person taht actually has to return to the real world VS non profit wind-blowers, they get in office and lobby for their own interests and sometimes lobby against what the real citizens want to set up their own funding. Socialist pigs, and their trough is running low.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 11:07 pm EST

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Sen Leahy has become affected by the disorder of Secular progressive Liberalism.
Ive attended St Augustines when he's been there, he's not a good Catholic either.
Time for him to get turned out to pasture in Middlesex and take a look at his socialist wreck of a state first hand
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 10:57 pm EST

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AYK- Thanks for the change of heart for those of us that have paid into our SSA over the years and now have SSA income and we pay for Medicare and Medicare gap insurance.Neither the Feds nor the State pay for that either. Many years ago Vermont was a frugal state and Senator Leahy was part and parcel of that time also. His father an mother were very wobndeful people and hard working .Frankly, I have no idea why Pat became so liberal and cast side his family core conservative values . He surely has forgotten his family roots. His parents were conservative and decent peolple that live in Vermont. Pat is a decent person ! But his political liberalism based upon his present Core Vermont values he did not learned as a yougster when he grew up. Moreover, these new values are not playing much of a role now. Why I have no idea? Vt- needs to redefine itself and get back to the Core values of the 1930-1950-. Unfortunately it doesn't have the population numbers to be a major player in Washington and it is playing in a game it is not, and will not be an equal partner. In my opinion,in order to get out of this Economic mess the state should return to its Core values.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 10:37 pm EST

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Then you have the average Joe, cutbacks at work, he gets laid off- collects unemployment and that is considered taxable income. If he still has a good 401 he cant get any help from state because he has too many assets
...now these genius' at the state want to cripple teh average person jsut looking for bit of help along the way, force person to use and deplete savings and 401 and start frrom dirt

-----------------------------

Then u have the old folks--work all their lives, kicked into SS and medicare and time to retire.....NOW
their medicare isnt free, they dont get foodstamps, they have to buy supplemental insurance to fill in the gaps and to boot, they have to decare soc sec retiremnt as income. These people arent physically able to keep working older and frail, not all, but why the heck should they??! They already did their time
-----------------------------------------------

Then youve got teh nuts taht collect cuckoo checks for bi-polar or ADD aADHD etc, and teh drug addicts or drunks that hurt themselves, and as a result from injury get SS disability,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NOW NONE OF THIS is TAXABLE!!
NOW they get the free medical, free foodstamps and the whole Kit 'n Kaboodle just like WELFARE BUMS!


Now does anyone wonder WHY VERMONT IS BROKE!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 9:58 pm EST

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Wanna curb welfare recipients?
-------Start with drug testing
-------------Income tax, something, just so they know what its like to give instead of taking

--------------Unannounced Home Visits by social workers, to catch them smoking dope and cigarettes with the boyfriends there

------------No more free medicad and Dr Dyno- they need a co-pay each time, cut into their pot habit money. No more using Emerg room out of convenience for snotty noses or ear aches, if not a dire emergency cahrge them $50 out of next months welfare benfits

-----No more free Good news garage cars, they can walk, it would help with their obesity problem
Cut back on food stamps- if schools give free breakfast and lunch, why on earht do they need $550 for 30 dinners a month?
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 9:45 pm EST

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This is the lunacy that has to stop:

A woman with 3 kids, unmarried gets
$800 in reachup welfare cash
$550 in food stamps
$900 month in rent paid in subsidy, she paid $100 out of the $800
FREE Medicaid and Dr Dynosaur for all kids [when she didnt feel like driving and using her own gas money for Dr appts, she got FREE rides from GMTA to and from doctor and welfare appts, she lied everytime and the car was always 'broken']
So she didnt have to work, she claimed to have anger issues and cant hold a job and the kids drive her crazy all day (SO NOW all three kids are picked up by Headstart at 730am and kept in FREE daycare all day and returned to her apt at 530pm five days a week)
Electric bills- she piled up & waited and went to community action which essentially paid for 9 months worth of bills. And to fill in the gaps went to churches for the others
The Dish she paid for for TV for kids of course, had no internet i guess that was a plus. ( no subsidy for Inet yet) thats Obammy's cap and trade plan though to remedy that and other utility bills
Oh yes and she has a cell phone , of course
Christmas time- she went to salvation army & signed up & got free presents and the Christmas dinners-free again
Thanksgiving time- got free turkey and meals from church food banks
Community Connection day camps -FREE
got other camps for kids free -Easter Seals and Salv Army and another one i cant remember name of around here

She had these kids methodically every 2yrs so everytime she got pregnant, got WIC and stayed on welfare. 2 kids , youngest and oldest by same father, onein teh middle by who knows. She told welafre she had sex with too many guys and could never figure out who the father of any of the kids wer. Was a lie, so OCS didnt go after the kids dad for child support ( oh dont worry he was quasi- living with them anyway during all this)
--------------------------------------------------
NOW ADD UP ALL THOSE BENEFITS paid by TAXPAYERS , when does this lunacy end??!!!!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 9:36 pm EST

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AYK we don't get the short end of the stick we get the "shaft" plain and simple truth. Hell look at the Main Vermont bloviator i.e. Senator Bernie Sanders. Helped us Vermont disabled Vettrans by bringing into Vt $300 million for Health Care for the indigent and a VA clinic for Newport and Southern Vermont. Who in their right mind would want to practice rural Medicine in Vermont with their main patient load made up of Medicaid patients after 10 years in medical School.Those Feds only bleat out things without stopping to realized how they sound? i.e uninformed and ignorant. The Vt-Legislators created this mess in Vt.with the help of the Feds Congress and they can figure out how to implement a remedy at their expense not mine.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 9:16 pm EST

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NN-
Old people like yourself get the short end of the stick.
Our seniors worked all their lives, kicked into soc sec and medicare to be there in case they needed it later on in retirement days.
BUT- with people like that woman getting herself in a wreck then collecting off of us, and not to mention kids with [ADD ADHD AHDD who knows there are too many excuses] as soon as they turn 18, bam they are on SS disability, all because the schools had them on IEP and school teacher helpers.
Why are we wasting our money on kids in school with IEP's (WHICH are also funded by MEDCAID grrrrr) to have the kids get soc sec as soon as they turn 18? Whats the point. Either waste the money in school and send them out to the real world, or dont spend the money in school and jsut give them SSD when they turn 18

The People's Republik of Vermont is BROKE!
They have finally run out of other peoples money!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 8:59 pm EST

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Hey guys and girls on this thread,Please don't pick on us retirees on SSA like AYK did. Your battle is not with us it is with those escapees from Waterbury working in Montpelier
at the Legislative and Exeutive branch of State governent. If you think for one moment the legislators have not figured out how to handle the Voting Vermonters , think again. They tell it like the voters want to hear at election time ,knowing full well that when they get to Montpelier they are going to do what they dam well want to with no consequences in the future. We worked our time and paid forward into our retirements so leave us out of these arguments and focus on your own solutions(s). So far you guys are not doing so well. A lot of whning but not many solutions offered, except "More Taxes". What a solution? An idiot could accomplish more than that. YIPES
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 8:52 pm EST

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NN-
I wasnt talking about old people and soc sec, like grandparents. I mean teh SS disability that too many 20-30yr olds are on that HAVE not paid a dime into system, and scam for a disability.
Like the woman that had 3 DUIs hurt herself in accident drinking, turns around and gets SSD and has the nerve to get an Rx for pot and then assumes she can drive again gets mad because DMV said NO......... on pot ALL the while the govt pays for it
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 8:52 pm EST

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AYK not to be critical of your comment i.e. Tax social security.. Let me count the ways. when I was wokiong IO p[aiod a self employment tax to the SSA on all of my consutant work. Now I receive SSA payment everyh month beiong over 65 . Now I am taxed every month on my SSA I receive. I also have to report my SSA each
April 15th on my Fed 1040 tax fiorms. I think I am taxed and retaxed and now taxed again on mY SSA. I also do n ot receiove my full amount becasue I have a defoined bebefit pension. So I have an off set penaltuy.How many ways do you wan tthe Fds to Tax my SSA ?I earned it and paiod for it each year for more than 50 years before got back one red dime.
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 8:25 pm EST

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Let me see if I am right. I am being charge income tax and now I am going to be charged income tax. Maybe I will go on welfare! I probably could live better than I am right now and my tax money will all come back to me at the end of the year. How rediculous! Time to take a real serious look at these batsars working under the dome. We will have to unite soon, or lose everything we have worked for.
-- Posted by Steven DeForge on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 7:46 pm EST

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Taxes is the reason companies moved overseas. USA has too high of a corporate tax.
People or companies are going to make money, and they will find a way to keep it. Simply, and why not, its their money and why should they pay more, afterall its money they earned. Small businesses and companies pay far more than their fair share.
We need a FAIR flat tax- 1 rate for everyone, 10%. If you dont want to twork, u wont have to pay much, but its about time everyone pays something.

People taht collect unemployment have to pay income tax, why not tax welfare recpients and social security. Afterall, welfare and SSD people have more cash on hand than most do making $30,000. SSD and welfare people get foodstamps FREE medical [they need to kick in some thats only fair] fuel assistance, daycare subsidy, subsidy from govt for rent, and the list goes on and on. So by the time they get all extra's, they have $800 month pure cash to spend on beer and cigarettes and twinkies.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 7:38 pm EST

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Why not heavily tax the companies that sent so many jobs overseas? Aren't they partially responsible for unemployment?
-- Posted by Veronica Sunshine on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 3:17 pm EST

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Apply a surtax Tax on the working Vermonter to pay for unemployment compensation benefits? I thought Vt was part of the United States of Amerca not The Socialist Republic of Vermont? I gather this surtax is part of Vermonts role in the redistribution of wealth by Senator Sanders and the President Obamas Democrats?
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 2:38 pm EST

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We need more Fred Tuttles to take over the State House again.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 12:50 pm EST

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Culture crisis email circulated-dont know how true it is
but it makes a good point--

Dear Mr. President:
During my shift in the Emergency Room last night, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient whose smile revealed an expensive shiny gold tooth, whose body was adorned with a wide assortment of elaborate and costly tattoos, who wore a very expensive brand of
tennis shoes and who chatted on a new cellular telephone equipped with a popular R&B ringtone.
While glancing over her patient chart, I happened to notice that her payer status was listed as "Medicaid"! During my examination of her, the patient informed me that she smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and somehow still has money to buy pretzels and beer.
And, you and our Congress expect me to pay for this woman's health care? I contend that our nation's "health care crisis" is not the result of a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. Rather, it is the result of a "crisis of culture", a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on luxuries and vices while refusing to take care of one's self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance. It is a culture based in the irresponsible credo that "I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me".
Once you fix this "culture crisis" that rewards irresponsibility and dependency, you'll be amazed at how quickly our nation's health care difficulties will disappear.
Respectfully,
STARNER JONES, MD
If you agree...pass it on.
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 12:32 pm EST

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Working people and small businesses can't afford anymore. Businesses are on the edge right now, and the result will be closings and less hirings. Then we'll have even more unemployment. We need money spent on job creation, incentives for new business and job training. I know many people on unemployment that are working under the table, on seasonal layoff, or are making a weak attempt to look for work. DOL doesn't seem to push them.
-- Posted by Veronica Sunshine on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 11:38 am EST

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The collective idiots under the Golden Dome want to increases taxes on employed people and their employers at a time when employers are trying to stay in business. I have a suggestion for all of you - take a walk up and down Main Street in Barre and count the number of vacant storefronts, including the newly vacant Family Dollar store!

You are quickly running out of employers to tax which means you will have no employees left to tax. Are you people afraid to make tough decisions? You need to get to the budget and, by the way, bring an axe, not surgical scissors!! I cannot believe how incompetent these legislators are. Stop running for Governor and do your jobs!!!
-- Posted by Strange Land on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 11:35 am EST

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Hey! Finally a reality check! No jobs ,No growth in Small businesses in Vermont and Gimme my Fair share has come home to bite you in the arse! Why not ask for the two Vermont Senators,Leahy and Sanders how are theygoingto deal with this one? Maybe Leahy will donate his $3.7 million $ war chest to the State? Rememberin November : You do have a choice: More of the same or out of here da$#spot. Out! VOTE-VOTE Even Mass voters figure it out! You can also
-- Posted by None None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 9:14 am EST

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Why work? With this mentality it is insane to work and earn a living. Let the Govt give us a living. AHHHH Lemmings unite?
-- Posted by carl None on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 8:13 am EST

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The government of this state fails to govern according to the Constitution of this State. Instead they use the income tax that originated with the 16th amendment of the US Constitution, illegal sales taxes, and what they call aproperty tax which is really just a yearly repetitive tax on real estate.

16 amendment ratified Feb 3, 1913
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and wihout regard to any censu or enumeration.

Legislative power to use a tax must be according to the Vt Constitution.
The democrat and republican criminals have illegally authorized the income tax for use here in vermont. The Vermont Constitution chapter 1 article 9 is our only tax authority, a single tax that applies to every member of society using property as its base to determine the wealth of all.

The only people that would not like this tax are the rich and that is the reason the legislature and governors do not not tax Vermonters according to the our highest tax law. The rich would pay all our taxes because we are held in peonage by the corporations.
-- Posted by Bill Brueckner on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 8:10 am EST

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CUT SPENDING somewhere else!

Oh really
"""While we respect that we have a crisis with regard to the unemployment trust fund, we think there are ways to solve this problem without instituting a new tax," Moulton Powden said last week.""""

Gee maybe if for once you'd concede theres NO JOBS and what what you have been doing for past 15yrs isnt working, Spineless legislators.
,,CHANGE- try something new like CUT TAXES and SPENDING

Remember in November- anyone who votes for tax increases
and teh debacles of last years sessions. Vote out incumbents!
-- Posted by Are you Kidding? on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, 6:53 am EST

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