TimesArgus.com - We Are Vermont

Soldier's nightmare: Dying for nothing



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By MIKE SMITH - Published: November 6, 2009

Recently, many have been pressing President Obama to make a decision about Afghanistan. All of this is particularly important to Vermonters since approximately 1,500 Vermont National Guard members soon will be deploying to fight in the region.

The focus of the president, according to news reports, is to devise a strategy with the right accompaniment of military personnel and equipment to meet the objective he establishes. The key here is the objective the president establishes and his commitment to stick to that objective through both the good and the inevitably bad times. Without an obtainable objective and an unwavering commitment to that objective then probably the best course of action is to bring our troops home from Afghanistan, now.

Clearly the troops in the field are fuzzy about their current mission in Afghanistan and the commanders are deeply suspicious that any newly constructed strategy will soon be subject to change depending on the political winds.

History always teaches us some valuable lessons. Starting in the late-'60s the boots on the ground in Vietnam knew it was a hopeless cause. The objectives were constantly shifting and elusive, and the political will to achieve any of the objectives was short-lived. Soldiers and sailors began asking the legitimate question: What are we dying for? With the fall of Saigon in spring 1975 they had their answer: for nothing.

Armies are deployed usually for the purpose of defeating an enemy. Vietnam taught us an important lesson that if we get into a conflict, that we had better do it with a clear and obtainable objective, then commit an overwhelming military force to achieve that objective and then make sure that the political leadership and the public are fully engaged and supportive, even in the dark days of a conflict. Currently, in Afghanistan, all those conditions are lacking as they were in Vietnam: And yet, there is little discussion about whether we should be in Afghanistan absent these conditions.

If our involvement in Iraq generated protests, why doesn't Afghanistan generate the same level of concern and passion? Unfortunately, it seems nowadays that party politics is the prime motivator of protests rather than the welfare of our troops or the virtues of our policy. If it's a Republican war it's bad; if it's a Democrat one, it's good, and vice versa. In the '60s and early '70s, the vast majority of the protesters against the war in Vietnam had a beef with the policy, no matter if the president was Johnson, a Democrat, or Nixon, a Republican. In fact, they crippled Democrat Hubert Humphrey's presidential bid with their anti-war protests at the 1968 convention. To them, the morality of their cause superseded politics. The same can't be said of today's fickle protesters, where morality is absent and politics is all-consuming.

The ultimate fear of any soldier is that they have died in vain — that their death was without purpose. The reality of war is that the equation always is stacked against those that fight for us. The death of our fighting men and women is the ultimate outcome of a politician committing troops to battle.

As we near Veterans Day and remember our fallen soldiers and sailors from wars and conflicts now and of long ago, it's critical that that the mistakes of the past, particularly in Vietnam, are not repeated in Afghanistan and no service member has to answer the question, why are we dying, with the conclusion — for nothing.



Mike Smith is the former secretary of administration for Gov. James Douglas.








READER COMMENTS


Its all in his liberal translation and politically correct BS
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Thu, Nov 12, 2009, 12:00 am EST

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Walt since when do you make the posting rules? The same thing you are saying about my posts and others can be said about yours. Then again what can we expect from a liberal coward.
-- Posted by derek on Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 9:22 pm EST

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Olde Man I see your sticking up for your boyfriend again Walt. You liberals are in love. To answer your question I did not go to Yale or MIT becuase your mom home schooled me and boy was sex ed class fun!
-- Posted by derek on Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 9:17 pm EST

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derek - I'll have to think over your deeply thought out post before I reply. Did you go to MIT or Yale?
-- Posted by Olde Man on Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 12:42 pm EST

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Aa I read the input of certain individuals, one in particular, I'm reminded of a saying I learned long ago: "Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person."
-- Posted by Paul None on Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 9:56 am EST

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Oh, oh! "derek" is reading those supermarket checkout aisle "newspapers" again. Hey, derek, thre must be one that will reveal Hasan's real homeland as the planet BZZZKKKFT. Those guys hate everyone - and they are having babies with blonde, blue-eyed American women. Watch out! Can't trust anyone!
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 7:27 am EST

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derek - Where do you get this gibberish?
-- Posted by walt amses on Wed, Nov 11, 2009, 5:42 am EST

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Reminder to the two trolls: we are still at war in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 4:17 pm EST

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How is Obama protecting Terrorists? Please by all means explain..
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 4:16 pm EST

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Derek-
Obama protects terrorists because he said he practiced his muslim faith too at one time. Does Obama change faiths like his underwear? Chameleon whatever gets his public wink and nod of okay for the day.
.
Maybe this is hitting too close to home with him, Murdering Hasan said he coudlnt go to Afghanistan because he didnt want to kill Muslims.

What church or faith does teh Obama family practice nowadays by the way?
Voodoo?Black Liberation? Muslim? Christian?
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 4:12 pm EST

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derek - "Obama's colored buddy"........Is Box-of-rocks-stupid a fall back position for you or is that an accident? You sound like you'd be at home in 50s Mississippi.
-- Posted by walt amses on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 3:47 pm EST

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Derek? The professor in MA is a terrorist? Was Hassan in touch with Al Quaida? Link us to that news source please.. I would like to know the facts of this story as you see them.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 12:30 pm EST

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When Timothy McVeigh terrorized OK, did you all call to have all Christians rounded up and sent back to their country? which would be where exactly? America is a melting pot and everyone of us, UNLESS you are an American Indian/Native American are all descended from immigrants.

This guy, was born and raised in VA. No where else.. he was from here, and was muslim. So now because he went mental for whatever reason, you are going to round up all Muslims in the US and send them where exactly?


MEL HELLO MCFLY, HE WAS BORN HERE!!!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 12:28 pm EST

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"Their country"? Which country would that be?
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 11:58 am EST

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He yelled some Islamic extremist God bullcrap when he started shooting.
-- Posted by derek on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 10:17 am EST

Allahu Akbar (God is Great) is hardly "Islamic extremist God bullcrap".
-- Posted by Captain Obvious on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 11:06 am EST

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God Bless you Wally and have a wonderful day!
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 7:41 am EST

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Obviously, AYK, you consistently post such obnoxious garbage that you don't necessarily need to single people out to have them respond with outrage. Most of your stuff is either an exaggeration or an outright lie. All of it is steeped in Glen Beck, sexism, racism, homophobia and far right, fundamentalist, Teabagger, Christian voodoo. You don't need Saul Alinsky, you can alienate throngs of reasonable people all on your own. You manage to continually post volumes despite the fact that you seldom have anything new to say. You are now, always have been and will continue to be nothing more than a Tool - with a capitol T.
-- Posted by walt amses on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 7:17 am EST

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The murdering terrorist did not have PTSD, he never served or shot a anyone in any way.
His cousin was interviewd and said Hasan joined military and di not think there would ever be a war again and thought he'd get college benefits from the military without having to serve,,,,WRONG!!!! lol
No one made him join, but in his infinite wisdom he tried to bamboozle and use the system to get free college, well the joke was on him when he was called for duty to go overseas. The coward was a chicken and a sham and a con and a TERRORIST

His cousin said he wanted to pay back his college now that he had a lot of money , but the military puts time and money into people to serve, its not a free ccollege program.
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 6:49 am EST

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Of course Obama is dithering, it took him 6 months to figure out what kind of a dog to buy. I have been trying to find any info regarding his military service for this country, because he sure does seem to think he knows more than Generals and soldiers.
Obama can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag, so it would be best if he left decisions and took advice from the generals in the field to guide him and if Obama had some humility and wisdom, perhaps listen to Commanding Officers. Afterall, he does trust the military and CIA and Secret Service to watch him and his families behinds, so he may want to remember who knows best.
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 6:43 am EST

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Thats right Melissa B, I do not single out any person on these posts and resort to name calling. I write about idealogy and policies and political ideas, I do not single out people writing in these posts, thats a futile attempt to isolate and demonize, thats a lib Saul Alinksy tactic done here everyday by the Local Libs
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 6:34 am EST

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"The libs dont mind offending Christians or Jews or religions, jsut dont offend their sissie lib friends. And the libs are scared to death of Muslims, so theyre afraid to say anything that might 'offend' them either."

ARK, do you not know that the shooter was angry at being sent to Afghanistan and that he was a psychiatrist responsible for dealing with ptsd and furious that he was being sent to kill fellow muslims. You, with all your talk of the supposedly high morals that you have, would be too if you were sent to kill fellow Christians for absolutely nothing worthy of the name.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Tue, Nov 10, 2009, 2:06 am EST

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derek - That would be about as simple as your no longer posting idiotic garbage; don't want your name mentioned? Quit trashing people. Make some sense. Get into the debate on some other level than your normal far right, deranged swill. Obviously, if you can't take it, don't try feebly to dish it out. Try discussing the topic for once. It's Afghanistan not "derek's mad again".
-- Posted by walt amses on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 5:52 pm EST

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Walt, leave my name out of your future posts. If you do not agree with me who cares. Im tired of your old ass running your liberal piehole.
-- Posted by derek on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 5:13 pm EST

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Sorry AYK, the religious fundamentalists are all yours......not the "Lib's"; All your fake, BS morality is embodied in the extremists on the far right who would force their narrow point of view on everyone else..........sound familiar? It should - It's you and your pal Duh, Duh derek providing most of the fertilizer on this one. t?
-- Posted by walt amses on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 4:41 pm EST

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I really love that every thing wrong in the US is one ideologies fault, that's intelligence for you right there! Give me a break!!!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 1:52 pm EST

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AYK, I see why you don't use even one of your names.. you hide behind your pseudonym to put people down, no wonder you are afraid of people knowing who you are. Your a nasty little troll that only trolls these boards to raise ire, if you ever had one thing to say, you certainly haven't shown it, only to put people down you don't agree with, then you and your extreme right buddies have the AUDACITY, to say liberals only know how to call names, you prove every day that it's the right that can't have a logical discussion.
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 1:46 pm EST

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Maybe now after the Ft Hood massacre by another muslim, its take to knock off the political correct bullcrap, The libs all worry about offending someone or 'picking' on someone, these kinds of people get away with terrorism masked by PC. The libs dont mind offending Christians or Jews or religions, jsut dont offend their sissie lib friends. And the libs are scared to death of Muslims, so theyre afraid to say anything that might 'offend' them either. Little do they realize Muslims surely dont like the lib gay agenda on iota.
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 1:18 pm EST

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Libs dont care about the soldiers or military, as Barney the Dinosaur Frank said, "If we werent spending this money on Afghanistan we would ahve the money for the healthcare bill"

barney being the Dinosaur anyway seems to forget if we are attacked again, healthcare wont matter.
Take care of National Defense first and our soldiers, then teh economy JOBS JOBS JOBS,,, moron libs havent seen that the higher unemployment gets the less people have money for any kind of healthcare much less a bottle of tylenol.
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 1:14 pm EST

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Jest, I always liked the saying, "give them enough rope"..
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Mon, Nov 9, 2009, 10:44 am EST

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Walt, why is it anyone who does not agree with your liberal ways is wrong? We are a sorry bunch because we do not see things your way. I am sorry but anyone who is ok with government takeover, control of healthcare, more taxes, and dictatorship is a pathetic robot. All you are is a hand out accepting robot if you want want your neighbors have. Go out and work, pay your own way! Stop supporting a president who wants poverty and punishment on people who make their own way. 2012 this country will wake up.
-- Posted by derek on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 7:39 pm EST

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"It's nice to hear what you all have to say - it doesn't need to become personal and mean..."

Well, some act differently when they are in public or private.
Others don't make a difference between public and private space.

And some are just personal and mean.
Letting them live is tough.~


..
-- Posted by A None on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 6:18 pm EST

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No matter the topic, it is so interesting to read the initial editorial and then scroll down to the beginning of the comments. They begin in a very thoughtful and focused manor - whether they agree or disagree with the initial post is irrelevant. But then, inevitably, everyone coasts off into their own strength of opinion and loses sight of the initial topic - wherein a good old-fashioned ******* contest erupts. I find this to be hugely entertaining, but it is easy to deduce who is clever and who is blatantly ignorant and crude. Unfortunately, the ignorant and crude are always the last to realize the severity of their affliction. I am not your mother and it isnt up to me to scold; I shall, however, report such ignorant and crude comments. Leaving them to show everyone how silly you are doesn't work. If the Time Argus is monitoring these posts in good faith, maybe they will take note of such obnoxious behaviors. It's nice to hear what you all have to say - it doesn't need to become personal and mean...
-- Posted by Always Amazed on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 6:05 pm EST

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So - evidently - do ***holes
-- Posted by walt amses on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 5:33 pm EST

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Like I said before walt, liberals are the minority in this country. It just seems that Obammy is bringing the majority out of the "conservative underground". You better get use to having to share opinions, admit imperfections, and acknowledge the existence of superior thought. I know, it is going to be hard for an "old socialist" with hippie tendencies, but I have faith in you ability to keep existing. Roaches live through anything.....

ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 5:16 pm EST

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derek, AYK, Jeff Perkins.........all in one place, at one time, and of one mind. Such a breathtaking sweep of all encompassing ignorance is difficult to imagine, but here we have it, before our very eyes. Hey, here's an idea! Lets go to the middle school dance and tell secrets........what a sorry bunch.
-- Posted by walt amses on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 4:28 pm EST

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Jet the same could be said for the liberal garbage you post. Do what you wish, report my comment. You need to get a life!!!
-- Posted by derek on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 4:11 pm EST

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Buck Ofama
haha
ML
-- Posted by Jeff Perkins on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 2:34 pm EST

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"derek," I was just about to hit the "Report this comment" link next to your latest idiotic offering when I decided that it's so indicative of the low state of your intelligence that it should be left there forever, shining like a bright star in the Buffoon constellation.
-- Posted by Jest Askin on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 12:06 pm EST

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Perhaps Homeland Security has stepped up interest in the Domestic Terrorists and protestors against the Afghan-Iraq wars.
It would probably be wise of them to use their powers to search and monitor those people that go to war protests and internet postings speaking out against the current overseas conflict (isnt that what its called now)lol...the libs like to whitewash their own dirty dealings, they cant stand the truth that there are terrorists that do want to kill Americans, Period, Now you have them growing in numbers right here in teh US
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 8:34 am EST

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Picking on girls Darwin.............
-- Posted by Olde Man on Sun, Nov 8, 2009, 4:59 am EST

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Not as clever as you having nothing better to do then give people a hard time. Why dont you ******** and go eat a twinkie you liberal waste of life.
-- Posted by derek on Sat, Nov 7, 2009, 11:52 pm EST

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Derek you are just so clever!
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Sat, Nov 7, 2009, 8:48 pm EST

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Obama lies, soldiers die!

The scary thing is we have a man as president who would not be qualified to run a major business and he runs our country. Stop pointing fingers at Bush. Obama is the current failure and Bush had to pick up afeter Bill "oral" Clinton.
-- Posted by derek on Sat, Nov 7, 2009, 7:08 pm EST

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Where was Mike Smith when George W Bush sent troops into Afg. 9 years ago? The mission was unclear for 8 solid years and nary a peep out of Mike Smith. Mike, why did you wait all these years to make your point?



.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Sat, Nov 7, 2009, 9:33 am EST

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1st Republic 14th Star
Would you consider revising your post and submitting it as an Op Ed or, shortened a little, as a letter to the editor?
-- Posted by Judith Olinick on Sat, Nov 7, 2009, 7:20 am EST

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Obama adminstration has done nothing but politicize Iraq and Afghanistan, Inhis campaign he said Afghanistan was a necessary conflict.
Then he was inaugurated. Then in March he sent more troops, keeping his word.
Then along comes his PelosiUniversalCare.
Then Afghanistan Elections
Obama has the audacity to complain about corruption and dishonesty with Afghan politics and elections!? What?!
OMG Between ACORN Black Panthers and WorkingFamilies gangsters, teh Obama admin stole the elctions right here in this very country, And now the Obama admin is arrogant and has the audacity to judge another country and their politics after what his corrupt cronies did!?
Gee then wonders why the world perceives him to be a weak wishy washy Junior president, no guts and thinks he's a legend in his own mind....
Reality of what he's doing is going to bite him very soon.
-- Posted by Are You Kidding? on Sat, Nov 7, 2009, 12:43 am EST

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George Bush should have attacked in Afghanistan 9 years ago. Instead he sent troops over to do what???? Nothing. Then he started a war against a country that DIDN'T attack us. Now Obama has to clean up his mess.
-- Posted by Olde Man on Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 11:25 pm EST

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It seems to me the volunteer army is a superior idea. In Viet Nam many who died were draftees, who had no educational opportunites for deferments.

A soldier's job is dangerous, so is a police woman's.
-- Posted by Mindcat None on Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 4:10 pm EST

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There is two tea parties. One is called Tea Party Patriots who have separated themselves from the Tea Party Express. Tea Party Patriots can be respected for what they are standing for, and the balance they are doing it in; I am not in agreeance with some of the protest points, but I can respect it..

http://washingtonindependent.com/62054/tea-party-patriots-vs-tea-party-express
-- Posted by Melissa B. on Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 11:18 am EST

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1-14, thank you for your excellent analysis and rebuttal to Mike Smith's witless LTE. I really appreciate the views from a military man who has lived through all of this political hoohah and understands it from that perspective. Thank you, also, for your service to America. You make us all proud - in the best sense of that term.
-- Posted by Notta Bushman on Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 10:45 am EST

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1st Republic 14th Star,

You stated this nicely. The only arguement you fail at is the part about "Tea party". If you look at the party (there is 2 factions) its about ultimately less gov't involvement in our lives and about the gov't following the Constitution. Which, strikes to the heart of the matter you address so well in your letter. Former Pres. Bush's hidden practices would be addressed now by this President (he is not). It would also prevent the likes of Leahy from enouraging and renewing the Patriot Act.

Yes, the wars were based on some lies, some hopes, and a lot of politics. However, NOTHING has been done to change that. Not a darned thing by this President nor Congress. So, to call the Tea party people inmoral and hypocrites is wrong. I would call the Politicians hypicritical, and lacking in moral fortitude.

There is one difference between Vietnam and our war(s) now. Vietnam was sold as a policing action, not a war. These were sold as wars. Not that it matters when we have American's dieing on foreign soil.


P.S. Thank you for your service. Be safe!

Douglas Duprey
Marshfield, VT
-- Posted by Douglas Duprey on Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 10:05 am EST

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This commentary is so unfocused it's hard to know where to begin.

"The key here is the objective the president establishes and his commitment to stick to that objective through both the good and the inevitably bad times. Without an obtainable objective and an unwavering commitment to that objective then probably the best course of action is to bring our troops home from Afghanistan, now."

The problem is that the Bush administration didn't clearly define the desired end state before entering Afghanistan and Iraq. For years the only assessments we could count on was that things were going great, and if we gave them just six months more, things would be going REALLY great.

The Iraq and Afghanistan wars have become perfect examples of circular logic. When times are goods we can't leave because they might go bad again. When times are bad we have to stay so we can make them good again. All we know for sure is that we're staying because we can't leave and we're not leaving because we're staying.

It's not enough to simply say "win" or "total victory." The military needs to know what objectives need to be met so that they'll recognize success when they've attained it.

Think of the Civil War. At its lowest ebb, when there were members of the Union who desired a negotiated peace with the Confederacy, Lincoln successfully rebuffed them because everyone had known from the beginning that his only condition for peace was that the Confederacy lay down its arms -- after that everything else was subject to negotiation. The Confederates wouldn't stop fighting in 1863 and 1864, so Lincoln successfully reminded his constituents of the precondition that had been set at the beginning.

Or think of World War II. When some individuals suggested negotiated peace with Germany, Japan and Italy, the Allies successfully rejected that argument because everyone had known from the start of the fighting that the strategic objective to be attained was the UNCONDITIONAL surrender of the Axis powers.

The failure in Vietnam wasn't the military's, whose goals were to stop the North Vietnamese Army from overrunning South Vietnam and to prevent the expansion of the Viet Cong in South Vietnam. The problem was that the political objective -- creating a stable and credible South Vietnamese government allied with the US -- was unachievable. NO ONE believed the South Vietnamese government was capable or honest. If we wanted it, our military could still be in Vietnam achieving its military objectives against the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese Army. Because the political objective was not realistic, the military's success didn't matter.

"In fact, they crippled Democrat Hubert Humphrey's presidential bid with their anti-war protests at the 1968 convention."

That's ridiculous. Humphrey's problem was that he wasn't STRONG ENOUGH in his condemnation of the Vietnam war. In the closing days of that campaign, when he finally, slightly, broke with Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam policy, Humphrey staged an amazing comeback in opinion polls. In fact, he barely lost to Richard Nixon. Since Humphrey's momentum was generated by his anti-Vietnam stance, it seems obvious that if he'd been stronger in this regard, he'd have become president.

"The same can't be said of today's fickle protesters, where morality is absent and politics is all-consuming."

How does Mike Smith figure that today's anti-war protesters have no morals and are interested only in politics? Many of these individuals have been consistent in their opposition, especially to the Iraq war. They've made clear why -- they're protesting a war of discretion against a country that posed no threat to the United States. They're protesting Bush's intentional, lying, conflation of Saddam Hussein with the 9-11 attacks. They're protesting the torture and rendition and detention policies of the Bush administration, not as a question of whether those tactics are successful, but as a question of right and wrong -- the very definition of morality. Contrast that with the "tea party" protesters, who had no problem with Bush's illegal detentions and searches, his torture policy, his data collection that amounts to spying on Americans -- fascism. But they think guaranteed access to health care is a dictaorial plot by the Obama administration. Pardon me if I conclude that these "tea party" protesters are hypocritical and amoral.

I've spent 27 years in uniform (and counting). I did my time in Iraq, a tour for which I volunteered. From my perspective as a soldier and a student of history, Mike Smith is completely off the mark.
-- Posted by 1st Republic 14th Star on Fri, Nov 6, 2009, 8:40 am EST

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