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Pledge of Allegiance still a thorny issue at Woodbury school



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By David Delcore Staff Writer - Published: November 9, 2008

WOODBURY – The Pledge of Allegiance is controversial in this small town: Reciting the traditional school day opener is not a universal rite of passage for students at Woodbury Elementary School.

School officials have repeatedly sought, without success, to satisfy parents and others who want the pledge to be part of the daily routine.

Although the school board's latest attempt to address the issue enables students to recite the pledge daily, children are only allowed to do so as part of a voluntary group in the school's gymnasium.

Ted Tedesco, the parent responsible for forcing the issue in September, said the solution unanimously approved by the board wasn't what the 300-plus taxpayers who signed his petition had in mind.

Retta Dunlap, chairwoman of the Woodbury School Board, said school directors can't be blamed for that.

"We felt we met the language of the petition," Dunlap said.

According to Dunlap, a sixth-grader has been assigned to round up willing students each day and escort them to the third-floor gymnasium where, under the supervision of a staff member, they can recite the pledge before returning to their respective classrooms. The board allocated five minutes of "free time" – starting at 7:55 a.m. – to accommodate the daily exercise.

"This leaves it up to the parents, or the children whether they do it (recite the pledge) or not," she said. "It's been really difficult to get it to this place."

Dunlap said the board quickly determined that a previous administrative proposal to recite the pledge on a weekly basis – as had been the case before the tradition was completely scrapped last year – was politically untenable.

With Tedesco circulating a petition signed by roughly half of the registered voters in this northern Washington County town, Dunlap said the board pushed Principal Michaela Martin to come back with a plan to reinstate recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance on a daily basis.

Dunlap said the board took that position over the objection of some, who urged them to abandon the pledge altogether and others who said they were fine with Martin's initial plan to make it part of the school's "morning meetings" every Wednesday.

"We've heard from all sides," she said.

At least one of them still isn't satisfied.

Tedesco said the board's decision didn't come close to responding to the concerns of those who signed it.

"I think she is parsing words and I don't think it passes the smell test," he said.

Tedesco said he doesn't understand the school's resistance to reciting the pledge in the classroom, and he is dismayed that it took the board more than two months and four meetings to endorse an unsatisfactory response to his position. Schools around the state and in the area, including Woodbury students' secondary school destination Hazen Union School, all incorporate the pledge into students' daily routine.

"There is an extraordinary effort being made here that is completely untraditional and unnecessary and no one has been willing to say why," he said

Tedesco said he is troubled by the cumbersome and time-consuming process of rounding up students, and he worries that it will discourage participation.

"This literally is student free time … students are going to have to make a decision between playing with Pokemon cards and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "Without the leadership and guidance of the teaching staff they (students) may take the course of most fun."

Tedesco said he respects the constitutional protection afforded students who choose not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, but said neither they, nor their parents, should stand in the way of those who do.

"We can't have what amounts to a 'heckler's veto,'" he said. "That's just not right."

Although Tedesco said he is withdrawing his two children from Woodbury Elementary School starting Monday, he said that decision was not driven by the board's response to his concerns about the Pledge of Allegiance. Instead, he said, it was based on academic concerns involving the school's failure to make adequate yearly progress earlier this year.

Tedesco, who moved to Woodbury after retiring from the military in 1999, said he will continue to press the board on behalf of those who signed his petition.

"I'm not going to just go away on this issue," he said. "The taxpayers deserve better."

Despite Tedesco's concerns, Dunlap said the board believes it has resolved the issue and will move on to more pressing matters, like crafting a budget for a school with four teachers, six grades and fewer than 60 students.

However, she said, the board will monitor the new practice and make adjustments if it doesn't appear to be working.



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READER COMMENTS


The "Kool-Aid" reference is SO trite and overused as to be boring and stale. Try an original thought once in a while.
Aside from that, BS, I find it sad that you need to be so negative about the world (and everything in it) every day, with no hope of things ever getting better. Do you think peace is only a dream? Maybe it is, but it's still worth hoping for. Are you ever happy about anything????
-- Posted by taocats on Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 6:11 pm EST

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"It's refreshing to hear from others like you who see the bigger picture--the WORLD view!
We all have to SHARE this planet. Maybe someday there truly will be no more wars between us, as people sharing the only world we have to cherish...dare we hope?"
-- Posted by taocats on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 6:59 pm EST

While I agree with you, to some extent, that it's important to look at things from the "world view" perspective...how can we ever expect to change the world and one day experience world peace if there is no love and respect at home? I was always taught that "charity begins at home." If we're feuding at home, and can't love and respect everyone as friends and neighbors, then what hope do we have for the world? Sometimes it IS important to focus on the small things first.

If children are not taught respect and diversity at home AND at school (because after all, school is their social world and where they learn to interact with society) then the world will never change. It may be cliche, but "the children are our future". One day they will be the ones teaching the next generation. I hope they will teach them to respect diversity and to love their country...but if that's not what is taught to them...then why would they care? I see it only getting worse, not better. Sad.
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 1:04 pm EST

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It's refreshing to hear from others like you who see the bigger picture--the WORLD view!
We all have to SHARE this planet. Maybe someday there truly will be no more wars between us, as people sharing the only world we have to cherish...dare we hope?

-- Posted by taocats on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 6:59 pm EST

Well now I understand why you are unable to comprehend what's happenning here in little ole Vermont, your world view is getting in the way. Let's all hold hands, light some incense and sing a peace song for all of those other people around the planet who want to kill us and destroy our country. Please pass the Kool-Aid. I pledge allegance to the United States-----.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 11:10 am EST

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Frankly I think that the residents of Woodbury are missing the point on this argument about the Pledge. Having been a Master teacher in Vermont for more than 35 years I have much deeper concerns as to how that school is run. I recently visited the school on an open house event and was shocked by what I observed. Understandably, the school is old and small, but the classrooms were so cluttered that as an adult it was difficult to concentrate on anything. In some classrooms there were cluttered piles of materials, art supplies, papers and such covering every surface. There was barely a single spot on any classroom wall that was not covered with something; maps, classwork, charts, artwork, etc as well as things strung acorss the celings that one had to duck under to get around the room. The environment was so distracting even for me, that I couldn't help but wonder how children who have learning disabilities, and in particular ADD or ADHD could possibly be expected to concentrate and learn. Then, there's the extremely poor curriculum. I have been beyond dismayed by the level of academics that have been offered to the student I was visiting with. They are way below grade level and at best fly in the face of best practice. Recently, the school even sent home a permission slip that would give parents the option of not having their child do homework. While homework in general can sometimes cause issues at home, it teaches some important skills such as responsibility, and time management as well as giving student the extra practice of skills taught during the school day. Do these people think that their students will be allowed to opt out of homework should they change schools? What a shock it will be when they discover that they are required to do homework in other academic settings. On top of this there is the issue of having a school with only 56 students and 5 teachers which puts the student-teacher ratio at 11.2 students per teacher, well below the state average and they still can't manage to may their AYP's while schools with 20 times that many students and classroom levels around 18-22 students per teacher manage to make their AYP's every year. Finally, there's the issue of a school which professes in their handbook to take a very hard line on bullying, and harrassment, but routinely fails to follow through. There are students there that are bullied, harrassed and even physically abused by other students over and over again who when reporting to a teacher that they are being harrassed, teased or bullied are told to stop tattling. This school is rated 2 on a scale of 1-10 and yet the biggest argument in town is over the Pledge? -Concerned
-- Posted by My Thoughts on Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 6:07 am EST

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"No one is saying everyone HAS to recite the Pledge. There is no force here. When I was in elementary school (some 20 odd years ago) I remember very clearly that it was a CHOICE even back then....Never once did I ever see or hear anyone say anything negative to anyone who chose to not recite the pledge. This is probably because we were taught to respect each other's differences and beliefs. "

Thanks Sick/Tired for that. In my day in elementary school, then up on into high school, we were forced to recite the pledge. I can still see it now. It was the morning ritual, the hand on the heart, bodies pointed toward the flag, the cold war against communism, the hot one in Vietnam, all these crisis going on, and for us it just became part of the ritual. I am not sure how many of us really cared about it at the time. Many of us did it just to avoid getting screamed at by the teacher, though a couple of us at one point, including me, were sent down to the principles office for just standing there and not reciting the words. In high school, it got worse. I had an open confrontation once with a civics teacher over being forced to recite the pledge. A bunch of us staged a protest against its forced recital (Kennedy and king had been killed, the Tet Offensive, Nixon invaded Cambodia, the Woodstock Nation, Kent State, the black panthers, and so on were all in the background) Sadly, respecting each other's "differences and beliefs," was not in vogue in those days and they punished us, or tried to, for differing views, including the Pledge. Finally, the forced ritual of the POA was rescinded. I'm glad difference and diversity was part of your schooling. It is more that way now, which is why this controversy is so ridiculous.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 11:20 pm EST

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What I find particularly interesting is that nobody is offering any discussion around how to explain to a child, of any age, what it means when they might say "I pledge allegance to the flag of the United States of America and to the "republic" for which it stands...." Nobody ever explained it to me and from the sounds of it nobody explains it to kids now. What exactly are you asking a child to do when you ask them to recite this on a daily basis? Or is it simply mindless recitation of meaningless words. Explain it to them. And it's not about individuality, or individual rights, it's about being an American. I believe that's where the discussion needs to be.
-- Posted by paul coates on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 7:21 pm EST

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To Wm Haslam, and Kelly Luppi,
I would like to take this opportunity to thank you DEEPLY for your wise and thoughtful comments.
I have believed for a long, long time that being of a certain "nationality" in and of itself does not warrant any sort of (dare I say, snobbish?) pride. NO ONE has any say in where he or she is BORN, so why be "proud" of it?
Be happy, and GRATEFUL, perhaps, about where you live. Love the rights you are granted under the law, obey the laws, and take care to respect others who are different from you, when they deserve that respect.
Why am I any more important than someone who isn't American?
Well, I am NOT any more important. We are ALL human.
It's refreshing to hear from others like you who see the bigger picture--the WORLD view!
We all have to SHARE this planet. Maybe someday there truly will be no more wars between us, as people sharing the only world we have to cherish...dare we hope?
-- Posted by taocats on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 6:59 pm EST

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Oh ya! Obama is going to bring us all together. People can't even decide on what to teach children in school. Where were all you people brought up anyway? Children can't have Christmas, Halloween, Easter or the 10 commandments in school either because they might offend someone. What a bunch of **********. This is what our country is now? It is pathetic and I'm glad my kids are all out of school!
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 6:52 pm EST

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This discussion has brought back memories. In our family, we were taught that we were first and most importantly God's children. I felt from an early age that this was a universal concept. Then we were a member and owed allegiance to our family, then to our community and national and in that very same sense, allegiance as a citizen of the world. There is an old saying that says, " Big oak trees from little acorns grow. " The idea of "allegiance"
is something that surely can grow as people grow.
-- Posted by Wm Haslam on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 5:55 pm EST

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RE: Sick & Tired's comment as follows : "Never once did I ever see or hear anyone say anything negative to anyone who chose to not recite the pledge. This is probably because we were taught to respect each other's differences and beliefs."

I respect that perhaps you personally did not say anything negative to someone who chose not to say the POA, but I was a child in the 70-80's who did not choose to say the POA & I was criticized by some fellow students & teachers alike. However I stood my ground to not pledge my life to any country, any person or any object other than my God.

As for others comments:
I was born in the U.S. That was not of my doing. I had no choice in the matter. I am happy to be here & I respect the country I live in by my actions (paying taxes, obeying laws, showing respect for all citizens of all countries). (Side point: I wonder how many people who claim to be loyal to America cheat on their taxes, break laws & disrespect others.)

It is up to parents to teach their children in areas of religion, tradition, discipline & perhaps politics, not the school system. The origin of ones beliefs & traditions should be researched, as not all beliefs & traditions have good beginnings. And the fundamentals of education can be left up to the school system if parents decide to send their children to public schools. Though that does not give parents the excuse not to be involved in the education of their children in those areas. As it has already been said there are good and bad degrees of parenting.

Why not a moment of silence each morning for each student to use as they see fit? Parents can give children a daily thought on an index card or print off from the computer for that child to consider at that time. They could pray, recite something or just have a moment of peace before the school day begins. Does that infringe on anyone's rights?
-- Posted by Kelly Luppi on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 3:52 pm EST

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No one is saying everyone HAS to recite the Pledge. There is no force here. When I was in elementary school (some 20 odd years ago) I remember very clearly that it was a CHOICE even back then. We all stood up, but those who chose to not say it, didn't. Never once did I ever see or hear anyone say anything negative to anyone who chose to not recite the pledge. This is probably because we were taught to respect each other's differences and beliefs. This is a part of the education of children that is lacking in today's society (both from schools AND at home).

Now before someone attacks me...I did NOT say that ALL parents are neglecting to teach their children respect for others...but I work in public service so I see it everyday. A LOT of young people have NO respect for anyone...even their own parents, so someone has failed them.

I believe Mr. Tedesco's point is that by making it so that the children who want to recite the Pledge have to leave the room to do it...it may be viewed in a negative way to some. Like they are the "outcasts" who have to go "recite that thing" before school. Especially if no one talks about what it is or explains it to the children. There will be kids who view the children who leave the room as "freaks" so in turn the Pledge must be some sort of cult or something. I know some of you won't really understand what I'm trying to say (it's hard to have a back and forth conversation on a message board)...but why can't they take 30 seconds to say the Pledge in the classroom and those who want to participate do, those who don't, don't have to? It's really not that difficult? I'd be willing to bet that doing it that way would have a much less negative effect than the current situation.

Oh by the way, has anyone bothered to ask the KIDS what their opinion is of this? I'm sure they would have some very interesting answers. Some of which would probably make us feel like idiots for arguing so much!
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 12:38 pm EST

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So it was eleven o'clock at night, I type fast and spell check was not on. Thanks for the stupid comments. What is wrong with you two? Did that make your argument any better? You want to let kids decide for themselves but you think it's alright for a teacher to omit part of the information that they may not get anywhere else. You may not hate America but that doesn't change the fact that you act and present yourself as an angry, elite, ***** who just can't stand anyone who might disagree with you. In order to re-enforce your argument, you had to show the errors I made in my post as though that would some how change what I was expressing. You're too late on schools acting as parents. While I also do not agree with that situation that's the way it is until parents take responsibility for their children. And by the way, I do apoligize for not respecting the thoughts and brilliant manner in which you your highness have expressed yourself even though you are unable to recognize that you do not have all the answers. Your anti-American defender, James appears to be a wonderful match for your inability to debate without getting nasty. If you view my response as a little of the same nastiness it is just because I have been taught by the finest right here and I'm just trying to keep up with you.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 11:32 am EST

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BSA, ewe don't right so good.

Ted, you could enroll your kids in Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts, and they could get all that stuff, but you insist that the Woodbury teachers lead them in the Pledge. Strange... you take them out of the school 'cause it did not make adequate yearly progress (AYP). Do you think saying the Pledge will help the school make AYP? Do you think moving your kids in November is good for your children? Do you think...?
-- Posted by James Joyce on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 7:23 am EST

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"James and Tao

You two are classic examples of people that (WHO) can't absorb anything they read. If we could relie (RELY) on parents to teach their children everything we probably wouldn't have to send them to school. Do you think that all parents out there in the community are so well (-) taught that they can inform their children about everyrhing (EVERYTHING)? How about the parents that (WHO) don't have time or don't give a damn what their kids learn or don't learn. (?) I have to listen to James say that I am ready to hang teachers, (. ) well (Well,) that's retarded isn't it James? What are you forcing onto kids when they resite (RECITE) the pledge? What is it that you two are afraid of, that we might raise a generation of kids who think America is a good country? Maybe it would be better to make them suspicious of America so we can teach them to hate and devide (DIVIDE) our country even more then (THAN) it is now. What is it about you people that makes you so angry when people stick up for America? Perhaps you two were brought up to believe that we should brain wash (BRAINWASH) our kids into anti-Americans. All I said was give them the tools to make up their own mind (MINDS) when they get to be old enough. What's wrong with that?"

-- Posted by BS Avenger on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:01 pm EST


-----------------------------------------

So, what school did you go to, by the way? How'd ya do in grammar / spelling? Guess we can't count on the schools after all....
What are YOU so afraid of? That children MIGHT actually think for themselves?
As for your "you people" comment: I am not "suspicious of America," I do not try to teach any children to "hate and devide our country," and I DO love this country. One of the things that I love the MOST is the fact that most people do NOT expect schools to be proxy parents to their own children.
All of your ranting about parents who don't care or don't take the time to do such- and-such means nothing. There are good parents and bad parents.
Schools can't fix that. I don't have all the answers, and you don't either.
Call it a day, already.
-- Posted by taocats on Tue, Nov 11, 2008, 12:17 am EST

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People get all bent out of shape over the "under God" statement which is ridiculous.

Under whose God?

"If you are so offended by the Pledge of Allegiance or the American flag, then I suggest you go live in Iraq where you WILL most assuredly be killed for your beliefs."

If you have to force people, children or adults, to recite pledges of allegiance or other oaths of allegiance, what is the difference between a democracy like this and a tyranny except for the number of letters in the name? What is the difference between this and other oaths of loyalty, say in Iraq that you also have to do? Why is it that in a free society, young people here are forced (or however it is done) to take a pledge every morning in order to make them patriotic? If they want to take the pledge every day that is great. But to mandate this by force of law or policy?

It is sad that this whole controversy has come up.
-- Posted by Watercloset on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:34 pm EST

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James and Tao

You two are classic examples of people that can't absorb anything they read. If we could relie on parents to teach their children everything we probably wouldn't have to send them to school. Do you think that all parents out there in the community are so well taught that they can inform their children about everyrhing? How about the parents that don't have time or don't give a damn what their kids learn or don't learn. I have to listen to James say that I am ready to hang teachers, well that's retarded isn't it James? What are you forcing onto kids when they resite the pledge? What is it that you two are afraid of, that we might raise a generation of kids who think America is a good country? Maybe it would be better to make them suspicious of America so we can teach them to hate and devide our country even more then it is now. What is it about you people that makes you so angry when people stick up for America? Perhaps you two were brought up to believe that we should brain wash our kids into anti-Americans. All I said was give them the tools to make up their own mind when they get to be old enough. What's wrong with that?
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:01 pm EST

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Ted, I realize you were in the military, and by that fact alone, you have my respect. But why can't you "teach" the Pledge to your kids at home? Why would you insist that Woodbury teachers (teachers you don't even trust) teach the Pledge? (Truth is, your kids probably know the Pledge already.) It looks like you are trying to force your beliefs on others. (Now, if you wanted the teachers to teach Latin, then it would look like your motives were more sincere.) Is reciting the Pledge some kind of patriotic limus test? What test follows that one? Look at B.S.A.'s recent post: B.S. is all set to burn the teachers at the stake. Imagine what BSA would do if a child refused to say the Pledge!
-- Posted by James Joyce on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 10:33 pm EST

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SO...I STILL would like someone, anyone, to answer my question:

WHY do you think it is up to the public school system to "teach" the Pledge of Allegiance???

Learning begins at home, with family, at a much earlier age than school teaching.
Why do so many think everything should be the schools?
Are they getting THAT lazy?

Why shouldn't be up to the parents? WHY? Anyone?
-- Posted by taocats on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 8:29 pm EST

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P.S. The pledge of alligence has nothing to do with the seperation of church and state. The pledge does not respect or establish any religion nor is it officially sanctioned, authorized or mandated by the government. It is done out of respect for our country and what it stands for. One nation, under God, indivisable with liberty and justice for all. What is so bad about that?
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 6:34 pm EST

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Tao, We are talking about children here not adult people. Adults should not be omiting the pledge because of their adult attitudes toward it. It should be taught to children as part of our heritage and no one is forced to do anything in school these days. It is one thing to have already formed an adult attitude toward something, it is another thing to stop children from learning the pledge as it is intended because the adult in authority deosn't like it, or because it has a reference to God.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Education is about the free exchange of ideas, those people who exercise their authority in omiting an idea because they don't like it should not be entrusted to teach our children.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 6:18 pm EST

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I hit send before commenting on this last part:


" So you probably have a problem with teaching The Star Spangled Banner in music class then?"

-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:54 am EST
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO...No, I do not have a problem with "The Star Spangled Banner" in band class. It's a lovely song, and no one is forced to perform it, are they?
-- Posted by taocats on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 5:44 pm EST

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"My point is that the Pledge of Allegiance should have nothing to do with the "separation of church and state". "


*(So you say; but it DOES have a lot to do with it.)

"That argument doesn't make sense."

*( It makes perfect sense.)

" It's about paying honor to your country."

* (There are COUNTLESS ways to pay honor to one's country, not simply through a rote recitation that can just as easily be recited at HOME where parents can explain to the children what it was meant to convey. You can't shove patriotism down one's throat. It is PERSONAL. It's in the heart.)

Believe it or not, people can and do love this country without doing anything at all in a public way.











Everyone uses that excuse, and it's not what it's about. It's about paying honor to your country. So you probably have a problem with teaching The Star Spangled Banner in music class then?

-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:54 am EST [report this comment]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Posted by taocats on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 5:33 pm EST

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Whether you agree with the pledge or not it is not the school principals job to choose to indoctrinate young children into the liberal leanings of the left's attempt to tear down American traditions. Certainly anyone who disagrees with the fact that we should continue to teach respect for our country through a simple pledge must have an agenda against American values practiced for years. We should teach our children as much as possible about the goodness of our country as well as it's mistakes. We need to provide our children with the tools to decide on their own when they are adults as to what they will believe without the omissions of those who choose to disrespect our country's heritage and rewrite it's history to further their personal agenda. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with educators who are out of control.
-- Posted by BS Avenger on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 4:37 pm EST

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STATEMENT OF TED TEDESCO

The differing opinions stated within the comments are evidence of the greatness of our Country. We each know that we may express our beliefs without fear of governmental retaliation. Not so in most of the rest of the world and a fact lost on so many who oppose the saying of the Pledge of Allegiance.

I and others circulated a petition to return the Pledge of Allegiance to the Woodbury Elementary School. After over two months of consideration, the School Board accepted a recommendation by Principal Martin to return the Pledge to 5 days a week. The catch here is that the kindergarten through 6th graders who want to say the Pledge will be required to leave their classrooms and assemble in the school gym, one flight of stairs up, for what would have otherwise been a 30 second, in classroom ceremony. Unlike what is done at Hardwick Elementary in the adjoining town, and Hazen Union the school to which most of the Woodbury children matriculate, Principal Martin continues to refuse to allow the Pledge to be said daily within the 4 classrooms of Woodbury Elementary School. This is a very small school with less than 60 students.

The Pledge supporters who attended the School Board meeting of November 4th, made it clear that this is not what the over 300 signers of the petition to return the Pledge to Woodbury wanted. There are 600 plus voters in Woodbury and the Pledge supporters emphasized that children need teacher leadership in accomplishing those things that are worthwhile doing. Saying the Pledge in the classroom is both convenient and traditional. Asking kindergarten through 6th graders who want to say the Pledge to leave their classrooms to do so, may lead to delays to the beginning of the school day routine, sends the wrong message about the Pledge and is a bit much to ask of 5 to 12 year olds. Why not simply recite the Pledge where it is traditionally performed, in the classroom? I asked this question of School Board Chair Reta Dunlap and was not given an answer and nor was the community of Woodbury.

Since 2004, by a unanimous decision of the U.S. Supreme Court, there has been NO legal prohibition on saying the Pledge anywhere in this country, and since 1943 there has been a Constitutional protection for anyone who desires NOT to say the Pledge. So great is this Country, that should someone decline to say the Pledge, no part of our government can compel it. In fact, the Vermont Attorney General and the U.S. Attorney General and the authority of the Government would uphold the right of the individual to NOT say the Pledge. But that is not what this is about. This is about the heckler's veto which has ended a long standing patriotic tradition of saying the Pledge within the classroom. The Constitutional rights of the majority are being abridged. Both Hardwick and Hazen Union have managed to have a 5 day a week Pledge in their classrooms. Why not Woodbury? Woodbury Elementary School is a tolerant community that excuses students from many events for religious or political reasons when requested by the parent or guardian. This includes St. Valentine's Day celebrations and in-school birthday celebrations. So why couldn't a student who declined to recite the Pledge be likewise excused? I ask Principal Martin and School board Chair Dunlap once again, why can't the Pledge be said in the classroom?

The Pledge or Allegiance does not belong to Republicans, Democrats, Independents or Progressives. It is all American. In fact, during the 2001 - 2002 session, the Vermont Legislature, by joint and unanimous resolution, called for the Pledge to be recited in every classroom and every day. When I recite the Pledge of Allegiance, I pay particular attention to the last few words, "...liberty and justice for all." For the Pledge to have meaning to me, I see those last few words as a goal to which we all should work.

As for myself, due to the downward trend of the school-wide test scores coming out of Woodbury Elementary School, I withdrew my children as of today, November 10, and have enrolled them in a better educational environment. As a taxpayer and resident, I will keep up the fight for Constitutional and traditional American values within Woodbury and work to improve the value received for the tax dollars that we are paying.

This discussion is not over.
-- Posted by Ted Tedesco on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 12:48 pm EST

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Oh yes, I get that young children won't understand what it means...but they will never learn it if no one is even allowed to talk about it in school.
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 12:15 pm EST

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My point is that the Pledge of Allegiance should have nothing to do with the "separation of church and state". That argument doesn't make sense. Everyone uses that excuse, and it's not what it's about. It's about paying honor to your country. So you probably have a problem with teaching The Star Spangled Banner in music class then?
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:54 am EST

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"...It means that America is a free country where we're all free to have our own beliefs without being jailed or killed for them. Isn't that a good thing? If you are so offended by the Pledge of Allegiance or the American flag, then I suggest you go live in Iraq where you WILL most assuredly be killed for your beliefs. "

-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 10:18 am EST

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Dear Sick,
Those are rather contradictory statements, don't you think? First ,you say that we are all free to have our own beliefs, and then you say that those who do not believe that the Pledge of Allegiance should be be mandatorily recited in school should go away--to Iraq.
No one is saying that schools cannot do it--they are saying that it is not mandatory, for obvious reasons. Students have the choice to do it or not. Children can learn it, and understand the words anytime they wish to. It's nothing new that really young children don't understand what they're reciting--that's been a fact forever.
I don't see what your problem is, unless you don't mean what you say.
It is not a matter of being "offended" by the words; it is about respecting the differences of all.
Separation of church and state.
-- Posted by taocats on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 11:25 am EST

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What is the Pledge of Allegiance but a pledge to love and honor your country? Why would you not want to honor this country? People get all bent out of shape over the "under God" statement which is ridiculous. I'm not religious. Don't go to church. Does that make me a bad person? Does that mean that I think less of those who do believe in God and go to church? NO! That is their right because we live in this free country. Why should I be offended because the Pledge of Allegiance says "under God" in it? And why would I scrap the entire pledge just because I'm not religious? That's not what it means to me. It means that America is a free country where we're all free to have our own beliefs without being jailed or killed for them. Isn't that a good thing? If you are so offended by the Pledge of Allegiance or the American flag, then I suggest you go live in Iraq where you WILL most assuredly be killed for your beliefs.

What is sad is there are children out there today who don't even know the words to the Pledge of Allegiance, so how will they ever know what it stands for?
-- Posted by Sick and Tired on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 10:18 am EST

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Atta girl, Harriet. Let's shame the school board into doing what Ted wants. Then we can shame the kids who don't want to recite the Pledge. And if there are teachers who refuse to lead the Pledge of Allegiance, we can have the Dept of Ed put their names on a blacklist of teachers to watch. Then we can have some hearings....
-- Posted by James Joyce on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 8:33 am EST

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Right on, Harriet!
-- Posted by Mark Redding on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 8:20 am EST

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Shame on the Woodbury School Board for not teaching the citizenship of reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. It is always the right of a parent to teach against the American reason for reciting allegiance but it is wrong of a school not to teach the Pledge and our reasons for stating it.
I went to Hardwick Academy and we were taught to be proud of our country and what many had suffered to deliver us the right to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Through those teachings I was always proud to recite the Pledge and give my Allegiance to my country. While I may have shame over some governmental oficials doings I am never ashamed to recite a Pledge honoring the country that gives me the freedom to say yes to saying it or no.
-- Posted by Harriet E. Cady on Mon, Nov 10, 2008, 12:00 am EST

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Most important for American Students is t learn what the Pledge of Alleiance means and the impotance of their freedom of speech to say or not say it. Mr. Tedesco is to be complimented for bringing the schools lack of teaching what it means to be an American, that we do Pledge an Allegiance to outr country.
Harriet E. Cady
-- Posted by Harriet E. Cady on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 11:51 pm EST

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If it's such a big issue for the parents, why not simply recite the Pledge of Allegiance in your own homes? Why should it be in school? Why isn't it in the workplace as well? The schools don't start the day with The Lord's Prayer anymore because it is a violation of the separation of church and state issue.
Aside from all of that legal stuff is the fact that mandatory, rote recitation of ANYTHING does not ensure compliance to a belief or patriotism. Beliefs are personal, can be private if a person so wishes, and really should remain as such.
Stop making such an overblown issue of it and be happy that the children are (hopefully) getting an education.
-- Posted by taocats on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 11:10 pm EST

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All this comment got me curious about where the pledge came from: a socialist named Bellamy apparently wrote it in 1892 or so. He also innovated a accompanying raised-arm salute that was later abandoned because of its resemblance to the Nazi salute. An early Supreme Court decision found it Constitutional for a school to require the pledge. This decision was later reversed so now one also has a Constitutional right NOT to recite the pledge.

Dont forget: a person can have strong sentiments about a country and its traditions without going necessarily overboard on mere gestures like pledges, flags, and the rest.
-- Posted by Randy Koch on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 10:30 pm EST

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To all you who have commented on this subject, How do you all know that the school board did what Ted's petition asked? Our you a member of that board or have you read his petition word for word? Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is our constutional right!! How china and brainwashing got into this conversation is beyond me. Brainwashing does happen how ever in our schools today but it's not about the flag. Remember the conterversy over the social study teacher at spaulding high that made the papers!
As far as Ted pulling his children out of the school, he did say it was for other reasons.
-- Posted by Cally None on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 9:46 am EST

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Mark, you would agree that schools should not be brainwashing kids to lean left or right. Here, the school board (in striking a balance) did what Ted's petition asked. Now Ted is still upset ("I don't think it passes the smell test") and he's taking his ball and going home. Ted still wants the school to lean further to the right. Schools are not supposed to lean right or left. The school board has bigger issues to deal with than Ted's lingering anger. Vermont does not need this type of McCarthyism.
-- Posted by James Joyce on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 9:16 am EST

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The only brainwashing that happens in school is the overwelming liberal biases that get pounded into our children's heads on a daily basis.
-- Posted by Mark Redding on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 8:53 am EST

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Dylan you are so out of touch.
-- Posted by Mark Redding on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 8:51 am EST

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Conditioning children in public schools of your idiotic liberal beliefs is completely unacceptable. What happened to tradition? I suppose that teachers should not fly American Flags in OUR classrooms either.
-- Posted by Mark Redding on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 8:48 am EST

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Randy Koch hit the proverbial nail right on the head !!Instead of brainwashing vulnerable children how about meriting their respect 'the old fashioned way' - EARN IT !!
-- Posted by Dylanesq on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 8:46 am EST

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Conditioning children in a public school to recite the Pledge of Allegiance is completely unacceptable, just as is any religious recitation.
-- Posted by Dylanesq on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 8:42 am EST

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The town meeting in Bethel used to begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. Each year, I used to remain seated while everyone else rose to intone this civic prayer, hand on heart. I don't care for flags nor for unconditional promises. "Stand beside her and guide her" is my motto. I can tell you I had a very uncomfortable few minutes each year in my silent non-conformity, with disapproval radiating from those around me. But as an adult in a democratic town meeting, I could have made a motion, explained my behavior, caused a discussion and perhaps ended the tradition. A child in school has no such recourse. If the goal of having the pledge is to inculcate loyalty, our country needs only to try harder to merit that loyalty.
-- Posted by Randy Koch on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 7:21 am EST

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How in the world did the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in an American school by American school children become so controversial? If you don't want to teach your children patriotism then carry your a@@ to some other country! Haiti always looks, or how about China? Your rights DO NOT include removing or degrading mine!
-- Posted by Say NO to China on Sun, Nov 9, 2008, 7:09 am EST

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